Park Your Ego at the Door

[Dr. Rich]

Over the weekend when riding with a large group, I found myself questioning my riding style, my speed, my desire to keep up and my judgment about the actual road conditions themselves.

When we started up Skaggs Springs Road on our ride this past Sunday, I intentionally allowed several of the faster riders to take the lead. For many miles I tried to keep up with their pace, but questioned my own riding ability and judgment in trying to maintain their speed.

Several times there was water on the pavement going around tight curves and I found that I backed off the throttle and became very cautious. Over time I kept dropping back until I could no longer see the riders in front of me. This caused me to wonder, was I trying to keep up due to my ego and was I trying to ride above my own ability?

Several of the written responses to the ride, spoke of slowing down, concerns with riding two up, and not riding over one’s abilities. Some responses mentioned a downed rider that we had seen and what may or may not have caused the accident. Other responses celebrated the exhilaration and risk of high-speed riding.

I find myself confused by my own thoughts and the responses of others to the day and the accident. When do ego, conceit, over-confidence and/or recklessness take a back-seat to common sense, a healthy fear and self-preservation when riding a high performance sport touring machine? How do you know if you are pushing too hard and when do you have the common sense to let go of ego and ride within your personal skill level? Do group rides have the unintended effect of causing you to ride at a level that is unsafe for you and others? As the person who organized the ride, should I try to influence those who want to ride excessively fast to slow down for others or is that an unrealistic expectation?

Your thoughts are appreciated…… Rich

 

[HaulinAshe]

Knowing when to "say no" can be very difficult. This much I do know, the combination of unfamiliar roads, less than good weather/road conditions, and even unintentional pushing oneself near your comfort limit, will almost certainly send you to the hospital or worse.

If all the non-rider related factors are good, pushing to the two-mistake margin is something I don't have a problem with. It's that little voice that goes off in my head that says "Hey, you are making me nervous" that IMO must be obeyed and acknowledged at all times.

If the conditions, speed etc. are causing you to THINK about the conditions, speed etc., then IMHO you are already over your head. If the conditions, speed etc. are simply something that you are continuing to react to and your total concentration is still on the ride and the visual path ahead, then you are GoodToGo in my opinion.

 

[Fred W]

My opinion is that you should only push the limits of your own envelope when:

You are alone with no pillion and no other riders along.

Traffic is perfect, as in none.

Road and weather conditions are perfect.

Group rides are the absolute WORST time to push, since there will be some poor slob that will try and keep up with the faster riders, exceed their own capabilities and crash. How would you feel then?

Oh, and there is the distinct possibility that poor slob could be you.

 

[exskibum]

Excellent and long overdue thread, Rich!! You have really cut to the essence of the discussion that needs to occur to understand what "ride your own ride" means, and it needs to be understood on a personal, individual level.

I don't have time right now, but I will be back to it later when I do.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

Great post, Rich.

Common sense, what you call a "healthy fear", and self preservation should NEVER take a back seat to anything while riding, regardless of the type of bike you ride. Unfortunately, especially in a group situation, it sometimes does and that's when bad things tend to happen. You have to ride your own ride and don't ever feel you have to keep up with those who are more skilled, have a higher risk tolerance, or are just plain riding beyond THEIR limits. Group rides DO tend to cause slower or less skilled riders to want to "keep up". The best group ride is one that makes allowances for slower or less skilled riders. If the group your riding with gives you a hard time for "not keeping up", find a new group to ride with. If you're organizing a ride, make sure you discuss riding styles ahead of time and know that there will be those who ride more aggressively than you. Let them ride ahead and just plan a meeting place for those in the back of the pack to catch up to them. It doesn't have to be a big deal.

The bottom line is you HAVE TO RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE. If it's the same as someone else's ride, great. If it's different, pick a spot for everyone to meet and enjoy the ride.

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

A couple thoughts. Some of which people will disagree with.

I wasn't on that particular ride so I can't speak with authority.

As to my own experiences and thoughts:

I've been down because I was riding over my head in a poor visibility situation, just "for the thrill". Amazing how broken bones cured me of that (mostly).

I have found, so far, I don't like group rides, even of 4-5 people for the reasons you state. And I like to stop when I like to stop.

If I'm worried (I'm always concerned and hopefully aware) about conditions (including my own wakefullness, level of hydration, road conditions, tires, weather, etc. etc.) I slow down and don't give a damn what people think or if I'm late. Hospital ER's SUCK.

I'll probably think of other things and agree with others as they post; certainly find no faults with exskibum's comments.

We all struggle with the fun/excitement/responsible thinking.

 

[Murph]

I find myself confused by my own thoughts and the responses of others to the day and the accident. When do ego, conceit, over-confidence and/or recklessness take a back-seat to common sense, a healthy fear and self-preservation when riding a high performance sport touring machine?

Good thread! It sounds to me as if you were being very wise.

How do you know if you are pushing too hard and when do you have the common sense to let go of ego and ride within your personal skill level?

You must back off when you start to feel uncomfortable. Although it can be tough, swallowing one's pride can save one's hide.

Do group rides have the unintended effect of causing you to ride at a level that is unsafe for you and others?

Absolutely! We all know what we should do but we often let our judgment slip during the excitement of the moment. I have seen otherwise smart people do stupid things when riding in a group.

As the person who organized the ride, should I try to influence those who want to ride excessively fast to slow down for others or is that an unrealistic expectation?

I don't think it's a bad idea, but I don't know how much it will help due to what I said above ... the excitement of the moment. Add machismo to that and you've got a bad cocktail.

Bottom line ... ride your own ride and, when riding in a group, don't be afraid to back off and be humble. If someone calls you out for it (in, basically, a "mine's bigger than yours" attitude), the onus is on them for fostering bad ride etiquette and for generally being an all-around ass.

 

[Panman]

I lead about a hundred and eighty mile ride with three other forum members Sunday, I have never thought of myself as a great hot dog rider but sometime I like to push a little at least to my ability.

But Sunday when my route was chosen I felt it was my responsibility to keep a reasonable pace as we spent 30 or 40 miles riding in 37 degree weather with snow on the ground beside the road, another 30 or 40 in twisty shady stuff that had been sanded a few weeks back.

I kind of go by boys will be boys so if I push so will they. I like my three new FJR friends I made Sunday! I want to ride with them again!

So what I think I'm trying to say is that we are responsible if we push or we chase others and if we cause something bad to go down, do we want to live with that?

I think you are having good emotions asking good question and I hope it make a lot of people think!

 

[gr8eyes]

Don't ever try to "KEEP UP".

I was stupid back in 04 and learned the hard way, at 70mph.

I'm smarter now, never again.

 

[cougar8000]

Group rides make people do what they other wise probably would not do. This goes for experienced riders just as much as it goes for the newb. No amount of pep talk will ever fix this. For some reason once you are moving all or most common sense goes out the helmet for some rides.

I for instance when ever I lead the group, and I lead many groups of different levels, tend to go slower then I probably should sometime. I scan the tail and adjust my speed accordingly. I have stopped leading or taking part in most super sonic groups for one simple reason. I got tired picking up parts, going to hospitals and such. Not that such event can't happen in the slower group, it is just it happens on less frequency in slower group.

You should not be afraid to be labeled a slow rider, or have people tell you that you can pick up a notch. Specially if you do see or feel that at least one rider in your group is not as comfy as he/she should be.

Some peps don't like to hear that they can improve, in that case you have a choice of not inviting them to ride with you either.

 

[Murph]

I got tired picking up parts, going to hospitals and such. Not that such event can't happen in the slower group, it is just it happens on less frequency in slower group.

I don't want to sound like a killjoy but that sounds like experience and a good reason to request the faster riders in a group to slow down.

I'm not a big fan of splitting rides into "fast group" and "slow group" anyway cause the terms are so subjective. But I can't say I have a better idea either.

Here's a related question: should we be riding "to the limit" on most public roads anyway? There's just too many variables for things to go awry. I'm not saying that a rapid pace is wrong, but I've heard some riders talk about pushing their skills to the limit and I would argue that public roads are not the place to do that.

 

[Bounce]

If your pace is fast enough to cause you concern, then you're not riding within your limits.

"Ride your own ride" is more than just a flapping of someone's gums. Everyone in the group should respect a rider's choice of riding within their skill level and wait at each turn for the next rider back to catch up so no one is left behind. If you're riding with people who refuse to bite their tongue when it comes to how another rider chooses to ride, then you need to ride with someone else.

Ride YOUR ride - not their's!

I'll agree with Murph on this one (i wasn't on this ride, so this is NOT about the ride being discussed). If someone starts "schooling" another rider on what they're doing wrong (without being asked to do so) then they are being an ass. Keep the unsolicited counsel (on how to get another rider in over their heads) to yourself. Respect their choice for riding their own ride and knowing their limits. When they want your opinions they'll ask.

 

[cougar8000]

I got tired picking up parts, going to hospitals and such. Not that such event can't happen in the slower group, it is just it happens on less frequency in slower group.

I don't want to sound like a killjoy but that sounds like experience and a good reason to request the faster riders in a group to slow down.

I'm not a big fan of splitting rides into "fast group" and "slow group" anyway cause the terms are so subjective. But I can't say I have a better idea either.

Here's a related question: should we be riding "to the limit" on most public roads anyway? There's just too many variables for things to go awry. I'm not saying that a rapid pace is wrong, but I've heard some riders talk about pushing their skills to the limit and I would argue that public roads are not the place to do that.

Murph,

You aren't. I totally agree with you. It is just iI have pissed off so many trying to tell them to slow down that you can't even imagine. I still do it, just now I tend to let some slip. Very few wants to hear it.

And you bring up another great point "to the limit". People tend to not to account for other things that can go wrong in the "to the limit" equation. Road condition, other users, yes, animals are other users too.

 

[Fencer]

I ride faster when not alone.

Not neccesarily pushing my limits, but because someone else is there to call 911 if I go down.

I am not pushing anyone to keep up or keeping up with anyone.

Ironic, though it is, I crashed, riding alone and slow on a familiar road.

&@#$% GRAVEL!!!!

 

[FJRMGM]

Ride your own bike and let others ride theirs.

If they happen to be faster than me it doesn't matter so off the front they go and I am OK with that.

I'm not out there to prove anything to anybody other than I am a responsible rider.

 

[cougar8000]

I'll agree with Murph on this one (i wasn't on this ride, so this is NOT about the ride being discussed). If someone starts "schooling" another rider on what they're doing wrong (without being asked to do so) then they are being an ass. Keep the unsolicited counsel (on how to get another rider in over their heads) to yourself. Respect their choice for riding their own ride and knowing their limits. When they want your opinions they'll ask.

Sure, but some just do not understand that they are doing something wrong until you tell them. I had a 75 year old gentleman in my class 4 years ago tell me after one exercisers that he has been doing it wrong for all his life. So, if you don't at least try you never know. Someone might go through all their life not knowing that they are doing something wrong.

 

[HotRodZilla]

I got tired picking up parts, going to hospitals and such. Not that such event can't happen in the slower group, it is just it happens on less frequency in slower group.

I don't want to sound like a killjoy but that sounds like experience and a good reason to request the faster riders in a group to slow down.

I'm not a big fan of splitting rides into "fast group" and "slow group" anyway cause the terms are so subjective. But I can't say I have a better idea either.

Here's a related question: should we be riding "to the limit" on most public roads anyway? There's just too many variables for things to go awry. I'm not saying that a rapid pace is wrong, but I've heard some riders talk about pushing their skills to the limit and I would argue that public roads are not the place to do that.

I think Murph made an excellent point bringing up hard & fast riding on public roads. I will be the first to admit that sometimes I ride too fast, but I try to keep things reasonable. On public highways, there has to be room for a correction when something unexpected comes out in front of us. FJRFencer went down on a road he had basicall just inspected because someone littered the road with some crap that caused him to lose traction. A lot of things can go wrong and speed just ads to the severity. I think having the sense to slow down and know your own limits is simply a sign of maturity. If I can't keep up, I can't keep up, its no big deal; however, arriving at my destination with all my parts intact is a big deal. If someone has that much of an urge for the speed, track days are relatively cheap and much safer than public roads. Good Post!!

 

[NoCage]

Why is it that faster riders are considered "better" riders. That's not necessarily so... on the track, yes, on the street no. A slower rider can be the "better" rider on the street. I used to ride faster than I do now, so now I'm not as good a rider as I used to be? Ego can cause riders to push harder than they should because of my first sentence. Getting rid of the faster=better notion will cure the ego problem.

 

[exskibum]

When do ego, conceit, over-confidence and/or recklessness take a back-seat to common sense, a healthy fear and self-preservation when riding a high performance sport touring machine?

I’m going to approach this from a different direction, the one I learned skiing, which can pose the same issues. It seems to be a natural inclination to fall into ego traps. Some part of our ”self” is always comparing, judging, or making us think about the results that will come from some level of performance rather than paying attention to the process. But that's a distraction, a subtraction from the 100% focus and concentration necessary to best performance. The zen trick is to recognize and quickly dispatch those judgmental or ego driven thoughts, so you can focus on the road unfolding and how it feels to carve the bike through it.

Smooth is good and smooth allows, or is, fast and safe. Smooth comes from focusing on the bike and the path. The issues in that true performance thinking are throttle control, transitions from one direction to another, brake control (grabbing and releasing), shifting and gear/throttle synchronization, looking where you want to go. If you think about it, or worse, if you think about extraneous judgmental stuff, you lose part of your innate ability to perform, since you have subtracted concentration.

That's my long winded way of getting to the next question, which is the important one, IMO:

How do you know if you are pushing too hard and when do you have the common sense to let go of ego and ride within your personal skill level?

When it doesn’t FEEL smooth or controlled, when it FEELS forced. Hopefully, we are all experienced enough to know what it feels like to be in control, effortlessly snaking the bike through corners on the line we intend, even if it isn’t close to MotoGP pace. When it doesn’t feel like that, then you are probably over your head. That lack of feel is what makes us tighten our sphincters and start searching for what we need to do next – all subtracting more concentration. But we’re going too fast to be able to afford giving up even 5% of our available concentration.

However you recognize it, whether you feel like what you’re doing is dangerous or you just don’t feel the comfortable rhythm you know can exist, then slow down and get back to what feels good. Get back to controlling the bike smoothly, and not to worrying about where you are in the formation or whether you’re showing off good skills. You aren’t at that point. Don’t go down and prove it with an exclamation point. To me, that is the essence of what it means to “ride your own ride.”

Too many react by parking it in the corners (because the pace is too great to smoothly take your skills through at an even speed) and then use the throttle to catch up. We've all done it, but if you catch yourself doing that, it’s a sign. I’ve had some serious wake up calls before, too. Like narrowly missing the edge of the pavement when leaned over – it’s a wake up call, you got lucky that time – SLOW DOWN!! Maybe it’s just fatigue or dehydration and you’re better on a different day, or maybe it’s trying too hard to follow faster riders – doesn’t matter, if you get a wake up call, SLOW DOWN and reestablish what feels comfortable. You don’t need a second one you might not escape. There are all kinds of wake up calls, but that fearful tightening of body parts is usually one very reliable one. Heed it. And if you have someone on board and don’t heed it – shame on you.

Do group rides have the unintended effect of causing you to ride at a level that is unsafe for you and others?

Unequivocally, YES! It’s a whole stewing set of temptations to get into that judgmental, left brain comparison crap, to let your ego loose or your subconscious fear of not measuring up push you. In our culture, we tend to be competitive. Add testosterone and any kind of reputation, perceived stature or statement to have to prove up, and it’s magnified. That’s not a good starting point, especially when fatigue, dehydration, low blood sugar, heat or other emotions are added to the equation.

The plain unavoidable fact is that there are better and lesser skilled riders. What we need to truly “GET” is that it doesn’t matter over beers at the motel later. What matters is that we each experienced the same things (even if some were at greater speeds than others) and can share them with one another.

As the person who organized the ride, should I try to influence those who want to ride excessively fast to slow down for others or is that an unrealistic expectation?

A very accomplished extreme skier friend that I used to go ski mountaineering with ALWAYS said this when we started up the mountain away from the cars: “Remember, the object is to get back to the cars. If you have to make a descent instead of ripping something, make the descent. Your first obligation is to get back to the cars.”

That’s about the best and most leader-like thing I’ve ever heard in a similar situation. You can’t be responsible for others who will not exercise common sense or cannot reign in their egos or machismo (but you can decide not to ride or go into the back country with them). We all end up making our own decisions and need to be responsible for them. Those decisions are many and varied. If I think there might be a problem, I either won’t go on the ride, or I drop back and ride sweep way back.

Sorry -- don’t mean to pontificate. It’s a LOT easier said than lived up to and requires constant effort. No one likes to see friends get hurt or to be the one it happens to. Zen is about getting out of our own way so that we can perform, and probably also about keeping our egos from causing us harm.

My 2 cents . . . borne of procrastinating at work. :huh: