Park Your Ego at the Door

[twowheelnut]

Fact: Broken ribs hurt like hell, a punctured lung ain't much better and Yamaha parts are expensive.

Result: I ride like my grandma, now. You guys go on ahead, I'll catch you up.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Fact: Broken ribs hurt like hell. I ride my grandma now you guys.

Man that felt good! :****:

Thanks TDub!

Damn just noticed I spelled that wrong

:jester:

 

[MrTwisty]

I love to ride fast, but there is such a thing as "safe fast", and it is different for all of us. Plus, I always can find my way back home, so leave me if you want to.

 

[Khunajawdge]

When do ego, conceit, over-confidence and/or recklessness take a back-seat to common sense, a healthy fear and self-preservation when riding a high performance sport touring machine?

Get back to controlling the bike smoothly, and not to worrying about where you are in the formation or whether you’re showing off good skills. You aren’t at that point. Don’t go down and prove it with an exclamation point. To me, that is the essence of what it means to “ride your own ride.”

I hear you, and I will add...

there is NO room for narcisism (..or ego) in the individual survival of a "motorcyclist."

plus +

Motorcycling should NEVER be made to be (or thought of as) "popular". The riding public should try to make themselves better riders... PERIOD.

...and lastly,

If you cannot find a bike that IS suitable to your riding style or needs, then make one of your own. This is (or should be?) the American way!

cheers,

 

[HaulinAshe]

I'm not as taboo about speed and personal performance as some on this forum. They will undoubtedly live much longer than I will and I encourage everyone to heed their advice. I'm not the sharpest tool in the family shed.

However, I do feel that honing one's skills, can and often does lead to better decisions and perhaps even a longer riding career/life. It's helped me survive some mistakes and unknowns that might very well have resulted in serious injury without the trained and practiced reactions to effectively deal with the situation. Please note, I have said NOTHING in this paragraph about speed.

Anytime you are in a group-ride situation you are NOT riding YOUR ride. You are forced to deal with other riders' strengths and weaknesses. You are forced to make changes to what would normally be called "your pace" or "your ride" in order to keep your place in the group. So in my opinion, the very term group-ride is mutually exclusive to riding your own ride. I think of it as "instant and constant traffic".

Having said that, let me stress that I do enjoy small group rides of 4-5 bikes. I really do like most of you people a lot, and amazingly some of you can tolerate me. I believe that for a group ride to be reasonably safe and comfortable, EVERYONE has to back it down below 80%. Following requires more skill than leading. Leading requires more wisdom than following. Which, BTW, is why as a group ride leader, I tend to run past so many turns!

Also as a group ride leader, I try to ride a pace that allows the slowest rider to keep in sight of the group. If I don't see your headlights on a regular basis then I will slow down and/or come back for you. If I feel the need to "stretch my legs", I'll pick a stopping point and announce where I'll be and BEG you NOT to keep pace with me, but please ride as you are comfortable. I'll simply meet you there.

One last thought, and it's a racing thought...

Every rider has their weak points and strong points. If you compare your riding skills by how well you stay "glued" to another rider, then you are selling yourself short. If you can mentally break away from simply following the leader and give yourself enough following distance and mental space to concentrate on YOUR RIDE, you will be able to play on your strengths and exploit their weaknesses. Which in the case of riding on the street, translates to making up time and closing following distances comfortably and safely.

Every rider has limitations. Every rider has strengths. IMO, knowing well what BOTH are is what makes you a truly good rider.

[SIZE=12pt]True speed is a product of wisdom and practice.[/SIZE]

 

[Old Michael]

I've read every reply to this post - twice. Lots of wisdom from very accomplished riders. Time well spent.

Yes, group rides can end up being more dangerous, or not. Yes, asking everyone to in a group ride to practice moderation is a reasonable thing to request.

 

[madmike2]

I see your posting as asking 2 different and distinct questions.

First:

[SIZE=8pt]Over the weekend when riding with a large group, I found myself questioning my riding style, my speed, my desire to keep up and my judgment about the actual road conditions themselves.[/SIZE]
When we started up Skaggs Springs Road on our ride this past Sunday, I intentionally allowed several of the faster riders to take the lead. For many miles I tried to keep up with their pace, but questioned my own riding ability and judgment in trying to maintain their speed.

Several times there was water on the pavement going around tight curves and I found that I backed off the throttle and became very cautious. Over time I kept dropping back until I could no longer see the riders in front of me.

This caused me to wonder, was I trying to keep up due to my ego and was I trying to ride above my own ability?

I have been in conversation with a couple of forum members since the posts about the ride. Since I haven't been riding regularly after my KLR incident, I find that my skills and muscle memory are not what they should be. Once the FJR is back from the warranty repairs, I intend to "relearn" some lost skills...starting with parking lot drills for braking, etc., then moving on to riding the twisty foothill favorites at a speed designed to make me apply my head-knowledge until it again becomes second nature.

There are two words that I found repeating themselves as I conversed in type with my friends and riding partners: SMOOTH and RYTHYM!

I know when I am not mentally (whether distracted or fatigued) or physically on "my game". It is my responsibility to rein in my ego and emotional excitement and ride a more controlled ride. It sounds like that is what you did....albeit after a couple of "excursions".

Several of the written responses to the ride, spoke of slowing down, concerns with riding two up, and not riding over one’s abilities. Some responses mentioned a downed rider that we had seen and what may or may not have caused the accident. Other responses celebrated the exhilaration and risk of high-speed riding.

I don't feel the need to reopen this vein of thought.
Second:

[SIZE=8pt]I find myself confused by my own thoughts and the responses of others to the day and the accident. When do ego, conceit, over-confidence and/or recklessness take a back-seat to common sense, a healthy fear and self-preservation when riding a high performance sport touring machine? How do you know if you are pushing too hard and when do you have the common sense to let go of ego and ride within your personal skill level? Do group rides have the unintended effect of causing you to ride at a level that is unsafe for you and others?[/SIZE] As the person who organized the ride, should I try to influence those who want to ride excessively fast to slow down for others or is that an unrealistic expectation?
Your thoughts are appreciated…… Rich

Murph covered this rather succinclty, but I'd still like to offer my opinion. Caveat: I took last year off from organizing group rides. My reasons are my own and varied, but when I did (and will again this year) I always had a basic plan and EVERYONE got to hear one of Madmike's infamous safety lectures.

1.) Everyone gets a map of the ride

2.) We ride "The Pace" and leave 3 seconds between bikes. Link to The Pace!

3.) I no longer lead "formation" rides, but "shared destination" rides. SInce all have a map in their possession, I have marked the rest stops and lunch stop. Even the very fastest rider won't usually beat the slowest rider by more than 5-10 minutes on a 60-70 mile leg of the ride.

4.) I KNOW there are some very smooth and skilled riders and I usually will let them pair or group-up and have fun. [SIZE=8pt]Besides, that lets them mark out the parking places for the rest of us!!![/SIZE]

5.) During my "lecture" I usually inform the group that I am riding the speed limit +5mph. I've found that is the best in the Sierras because the CHP has a habit of patrolling the back roads and the "Gold Country Cities" (Sutter Creek, Calaveras, San Andreas, et al) won't use me to help finance their treasuries.

Maybe the above sounds a little "high and mighty", but it has worked pretty well for the last few years. I always remind folks that if they are being "pushed" by the trailing rider, simply let him pass.

Have I violated my guidelines? Absolutely. On our Hwy 36 ride in 2006 I had just found out my Dad had passed away the day before the planned trip. My entire family told me to make the ride (there was nothing to be done...all had been planned, etc.). I w2arned others NOT to follow me as a leader and I chose one other rider to "explore the limits" with....Andrew and I had a "yee-freakin-haw" time of riding from Red Bluff to Eureka. I then followed that with a lovely controlled ride on the "Lost Coast" with FJRay. 2 completely different rides on the same day, and equally as fun and enjoyable!

In the end, there are no easy answers. Hopefully you (and everyone) will glean some insights from the discussion and apply them to their own riding excursions.

 

[SPORT]

Over the weekend when riding with a large group, I found myself questioning my riding style, my speed, my desire to keep up and my judgment about the actual road conditions themselves.
When we started up Skaggs Springs Road on our ride this past Sunday, I intentionally allowed several of the faster riders to take the lead. For many miles I tried to keep up with their pace, but questioned my own riding ability and judgment in trying to maintain their speed.

Several times there was water on the pavement going around tight curves and I found that I backed off the throttle and became very cautious. Over time I kept dropping back until I could no longer see the riders in front of me. This caused me to wonder, was I trying to keep up due to my ego and was I trying to ride above my own ability?

Several of the written responses to the ride, spoke of slowing down, concerns with riding two up, and not riding over one’s abilities. Some responses mentioned a downed rider that we had seen and what may or may not have caused the accident. Other responses celebrated the exhilaration and risk of high-speed riding.

I find myself confused by my own thoughts and the responses of others to the day and the accident. When do ego, conceit, over-confidence and/or recklessness take a back-seat to common sense, a healthy fear and self-preservation when riding a high performance sport touring machine? How do you know if you are pushing too hard and when do you have the common sense to let go of ego and ride within your personal skill level? Do group rides have the unintended effect of causing you to ride at a level that is unsafe for you and others? As the person who organized the ride, should I try to influence those who want to ride excessively fast to slow down for others or is that an unrealistic expectation?

Your thoughts are appreciated…… Rich

Dr. Rich,

Haven't read the other posts yet, so this may be a duplicate. Nevertheless,

Ride Your Own Ride.
My personal opinion, It's awefully early in the season to be pushing harder than your comfortable. You will notice yourself becoming more comfortable through a given season and will naturally be more confident and maybe even more aggressive as your experience grows. In a previous post I shared that I sold my Triumph Sprint ST becuase I was sliding knees in early March...which was to early in the season (I don't ride as much during the snowy weather), and as such, I am generally not in tune with the bike, the road, and my senses. Ironically, I had felt comfortable but I've also learned to be cautious of myself becuase I don't always have the brains to keep the senses together (if that makes any since).

In Groups Rides I tend to hang back now (even though I prefer a much faster pace) because others have a tendancy to want to keep up, which has in the past caused others to loose their senses and go down.

Although group rides can be fun, I really seem to enjoy riding by myself and and at my pace (There is the exception of when I had my sport bike and rode with two others on similar bikes, but we were all pretty much evenly yoked and comfortable with each other's riding styles).

In the end, as an MSF instructor, I'll always say to my students as I will with you, Ride your own ride.

Hope this helps.

Sport

 

[madmike2]

Fact: Broken ribs hurt like hell, a punctured lung ain't much better and Yamaha parts are expensive.
Result: I ride like my grandma, now. You guys go on ahead, I'll catch you up.

Yep! En thems helio-chopper rydes is ESPENSIEVE! Eye ain't gunna boar y'all wit listin' alla them hurt, busted, spraint and mislokated body parts... Y'all goe-wan ahaid...jist set me a place et thet dinner-table...Eye'll bee yonder en jist a bit!

 

[Geezer]

I consider myself about average when compared with the other FJR riders I've ridden with. Some days I am comfortable riding pretty fast and other days things just aren't clicking well, my focus isn't fully there, or the road conditions don't feel right and I ride more conservatively. For me it's not about ego but about enjoying the ride as much as possible.

I don't really like to lead a group ride but I do find myself doing that sometimes. When I lead I find myself thinking about whether I am going fast enough, or too fast, for the group. I prefer to ride in the middle of the pack and just fall back if the pack is going too fast for my comfort.

Every time I go on a group ride I learn something. Either I make a mistake and learn from it, or I see a rider do something in a better way that I was doing it, or sometimes I learn from talking with people during breaks. It's always worthwhile.

 

[FJRAust]

I've not read all posts so I may well be repeating another's words here..

We do often ride as a group of 5-10 generally not larger.

The discussion before the ride is that we must all ride to our own abilities.

The riding group consists of various bikes from 600CC Honda thingy to GSXR 1100's. And riders with varying degrees of experience.

The point is that we do discuss the ability points and to confirm this those of us with more experience (not necessarily better riders) will at times drop back to sit with the slower riders and watch their style etc.

We stop occasionally also to ensure we are riding as a group..

We also discuss the finer points of our own mistakes and others..

My point.

Always ride to the capabilities of your ability.

If you are lucky enough to be one of the better riders in a group always remember you are part of a group and therefore have a responsibility to those who for what ever reason are not as fast..

You'll be respected and have a great time..

 

[Scab]

Knowing when to "say no" can be very difficult. This much I do know, the combination of unfamiliar roads, less than good weather/road conditions, and even unintentional pushing oneself near your comfort limit, will almost certainly send you to the hospital or worse.

Amen, brother.

Oh, and thanks for always waiting for me at the stop sign.

Fact: Broken ribs hurt like hell, a punctured lung ain't much better and Yamaha parts are expensive.
Result: I ride like my grandma, now. You guys go on ahead, I'll catch you up.

Hey, I could ride with you!

Good thread. This is a topic I have given a lot of thought to of late. On another thread, I wrote a small dissertation that didn't include scaring myself as part of my fascination with bikes. So, I must resign myself to be myself. Perhaps I will coin a phrase for my style of riding. I will be a "Tourist Rider." I love the ride, but I also love the sights along the way.

 

[Toecutter]

Group rides need to be GROUP RIDES, or shared destination meetups.

When riding as a group, anybody with another bike behind them needs to keep that bike visible in the rear view mirror. If the bike behind you starts to fade away, slow down. That way, the group is going the pace of the slowest rider. Deal with it. It's about fellowship, right? Not egomania.

Or go race on ahead, with a predetermined meeting point. If you're not there when the other riders show up, maybe you crashed. If so, you won't have anybody to blame. Why not just ride alone, unless you're into showing off?

Utopian, I know....and why I rarely ride in groups anymore. That, and **** like this.

I love the ride, but I also love the sights along the way.

You need to read the linked story above, and be real careful about the sightseeing.

 

[phil]

All of you guys have made sound and intelligent points here. And I can relate to each one. As a much younger man, I found that by constant practice, and especially on courses I knew well, I was able to become one with my motocross machines. The lifting-off of the bike into the ozone, power-drifting down the straight by the power of a big 2-stroke overcoming traction and trying to swap-ends, coming into a tight turn at full power and braking at the last millisecond, became second-nature to me. It was something I did without conciously thinking about it. (Also had some spectacular get-offs!)

BUT, I have never attained that nirvana with street bikes, as I have never raced them. So, on a group ride, I'm in the middle or close to the rear of the "pack" in riding the twisties. I hear that little voice telling me that the next turn may have unseen hazards or decreasing radius, or a vehicle over the center-line, or that I may enter too quickly or at the wrong angle. And I have not learned to slide off the inside of the saddle for proper weight distribution, nor to look THROUGH the turn to the next straight. If I never get a track day, I may never learn these skills. But that's okay. I will just ride my ride! Phil

 

[Hit the Road Jack]

I too seldom ride with anyone else because I don't care for the 'pressure' of keeping someone else's pace.

I did participate in the famous 'Ride to Creston' last summer, and only saw Granny TWN whenever we stopped! "I'm just sayin'."

Like many others here, I too am now in my 50's and have had crashes in the past. Don't care to experience that anymore.

Track days are really the best deal if you feel the need for speed and want to test your limits. Public roads are not!

 

[Scab]

I love the ride, but I also love the sights along the way.

You need to read the linked story above, and be real careful about the sightseeing.

I do love the sights, but not to that level. What I am not fond of, is the rides that end and my only memory is asphalt. I want to ride at the level that allows me to always know where I am and at the end of the day, know where I've been.

 

[twowheelnut]

Fact: Broken ribs hurt like hell. I ride my grandma now you guys.

Man the felt good! :****:

Thanks TDub!

:jester:

Bustagoof, meet grandma:

Hey, I could ride with you!

Look forward to it!

 

[SMC]

:blink: Guilty, there is a reason why I have ridden by myself for the most of the last 36 years, I set my own pace that I know is right and safe for me.

The two times I have gotten together with FJR riders at the gatherings I have found the old testosterone creep playing a certain part and myself doing things that I normally would not do on my own, ie., going at the rates of speed we were doing on roads that were unfamiliar to me.

Three or four times I found myself carrying so much speed into a turn that I went wide into the oncoming lane...luckily for me there was never a vehicle coming in the opposite direction. Who's fault is that? No one but my own.

There is a reason why my insurance rates are so low and I haven't seen the inside of an emergency room for so many years, for the most part when left to my own devices, I remember all the past accidents I've had (horseback riding, ski racing, motorcycle's, snowmobiles) and the two knee operations, two hip operations, femur pinning operations, fractured neck, learning how to walk again, and having learned from them...I set a spirited but not very risky pace for myself.

So when I next get together with the FJR brethern I may be more apt to say have a great ride and I'll see you at the destination if I find myself in that area where that little voice in the back of my head is screaming, this is not good and could get ugly really fast.

Sorry folks, but there is no one else to make the mortgage payment and bills except me.

 

[FJRBluesman]

Great thread Dr. Rich

I used to ride more aggressively on the road years back. No more. Track day riding cured that quick. I have a blast on the track and push myself hard because I can. I don't have to worry about, intersections, sand in the turns, someone pulling out in front of me, etc.

On the mountain roads I just cruise, enjoy the scenery when it's safe and have fun. If I feel someone is leading me too fast, I just back off and enjoy the solitude.

If I'm leading a group I go at a pace I feel all can handle, and I tell them if they feel it's too fast, back off and when we hook up at a stop, let me know and we'll step it down a notch. Don't feel embarrassed to say the pace is too fast for you.

The idea is to have fun and enjoy the ride. Speed doesn't always make it more fun....well... Ride safe period.

 

[dcarver]

Always know the route or at least A route home. One DV ride I was completely lost when the pack decided to thunder off at 130+. I tried to keep up then just gave up, figured I'd be better off lost than dead. Then I bought a GPS.