2009 BMW K1300GT

[beemerdons]

El Toro: First, I truly admire your enthusiasm for the BMW marque and I sincerely express this in a heartfelt manner; I'm a BMW Fanatic also. Second, I have been a major participant with BMW Motorcycles for 40 years. In March of 1969, I and a German Army soldier formed the German-American Motorcycle Club at my US Army Base in Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany.

We here at AZ Beemers www.azbeemers.org/forum only became aware of BMW Final Drive Failures while monitoring the 2003 Iron Butt Rally five years ago. Until then, it had never been a point of discussion at our weekly Beemer M/C rides.

Three years ago Brad suffered a final drive failure on his R1100RT at 55,000 miles. Just a year ago Michael had the final drive fail on his K1200GT at 39,000 miles. We are a club with a membership of 125. 25 of our members are riding bikes with either chain or belt final drives. Out of the remaining 100 another 25 are riding /2 models and Type 247 Airheads.

This results in a Club failure rate of 4%, this is not good and it is mirrored among all of the other BMWMOA/BMWRA Clubs.

If you'd like for me to send you the entire Shaw-Largiader-Glaves article simply post your address to [email protected]

Tom Austin also contributed to "Owners News" article, here's his comments: 1) 2007 Iron Butt Rally - 29% failure rate (this figure doesn't include a K1200GT that failed days after the rally ended either). 2) SPANK Rally - 25% failure rate for old style drive and a 33% failure rate for EVO style drive. As our club members approach higher mileages, we'll be there also!

Yes indeed, BMW does need to do something soon! Because as both types of drives are approaching 50,000 miles they are failing and they are stranding thousands! Please do not get me wrong here: In all other aspects of motorcycling the BMW is a fantastic machine; great engine, great transmission, great suspension, great handling! The final drive is the Achilles Heel!

From Warchild: ...you've got this Kool Aid thing pretty bad... Damn straight, even though I love my 2003 Yamaha FJR 1300 dearly, if someone asks me cold what I ride: The answer is always, I Ride BMW! However, even though I love the BMW marque, I am taking some very serious precautions. El Toro, I am formally inviting you to ride to Guatemala with our AZ Beemers. In preparation for this trip I have already secured a final drive for my R1150RT from www.beemerboneyard.com

I do not relish the idea of packing an old style final drive (plus tools and fluid) in my Givi 52 liter top case for my R1150RT. AZB Club member Dr. Bob Flanders also does not look forward to packing an EVO style drive along for his BMW R1200RT.

But the sad reality is that the twelve men already signed up for this trip do not want a 6,000 mile ride to Guatemala to be ruined by a final drive failure! So we are packing the necessary FD parts to deal with the problem on the Roads of Mexico.

There's an equal mix of old style and new style drives, so we're covered for both models. We're having our wives and girlfriends fly into Acapulco on the way South and out of Veracruz on the way back. We're just protecting our nice vacation!

If BMW finally steps up to the plate and comes up with a fix for their Achilles Heel, we don't have to pack final drives with us!

AZ BEEMERS OCTOBER 2010 RIDE TO CHIAPAS ESTADO FOR BMW MOTO CLUBS OF MEXICO INTERNATIONAL RALLY!

We AZ Beemers had such a wonderful time in Guadalajara and Puerto Vallarta this October for the Moto Clubs Rally in 2008; let’s go to Chiapas!!

Phoenix to Guaymas, via Hermosillo: 8 hours and 425 miles.

Guaymas to Mazatlan, via Los Mochis: 11 hours and 490 miles.

Mazatlan to Puerto Vallarta, via Tepic: 6 hours and 285 miles.

Puerto Vallarta to La Mira, via Barra de Navidad: 8 hours and 365 miles.

La Mira to Acapulco, via Zihuatanejo: 5 hours and 225 miles.

Rest Day in Acapulco and have the significant others fly in to join us.

Acapulco to Puerto Escondido, via Cuajinicuilapa: 6 hours and 240 miles.

Puerto Escondido to Tuxtla Gutierrez, via Juchitan: 9 hours & 350 miles.

4 nights partying with our fine friends from Mexico Moto Clubs in Chiapas.

Tuxtla Gutierrez to Villahermosa, via Palenque: 9 hours and 250 miles.

Villahermosa to Veracruz, via Acayucan: 7 hours and 300 miles.

Rest Day in Veracruz and have companions fly home to Estados Unidos.

Veracruz to Tampico, via Tuxpan: 8 hours and 315 miles.

Tampico to Brownsville, Texas: 7 hours and 315 miles.

2 days: 18 hours and 1,250 miles from Brownsville back to Phoenix, AZ.

These times and miles came directly from the AAA Map and Guide Book.

AZ Beemers: Start saving your vacation time and dinero for a 3-week and 5,000+ mile trip to see our amigo Senor Ruben Tenorio in Chiapas 10/2010!

 

[Warchild]

:lol:

 

[Murph]

I think the FJR needs to get a "real" update, like more power, more smoothness & maybe a lighter weight.

How much power do we need?!!? Most of us don't use the bike to its max potential anyway. With that said, why should Yamaha rush to put out another machine just to keep up with Joneses (in this case, BMW and Kawa that are moving to higher displacement to lure market share)?

I think us riders get hung up on newer=better when we should just look at a bike for what we realistically need it to do. Right now, I liken my FJR to a swiss army knife that has everything I need within easy reach whenever I call upon it.

 

[beemerdons]

:lol:

Hi Dale, I absolutely love it! When SkooterG wakes up at 1030 hours (Navy Officer!) I'll ask his help in making this my new FJR Forum avatar. I'll see if he can put a BMW blue und white Roundel on the breastplate. Danke und Auf Wiedersehen! DS

 

[El Toro]

El Toro: First, I truly admire your enthusiasm for the BMW marque and I sincerely express this in a heartfelt manner; I'm a BMW Fanatic also. Second, I have been a major participant with BMW Motorcycles for 40 years. In March of 1969, I and a German Army soldier formed the German-American Motorcycle Club at my US Army Base in Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany.

I've never been a fan of any particular marque beyond giving credit where credit is due. I've owned multiple bikes from every genre, from pre-failure Brit stuff (still have 1970 unmolested surviving Royal Enfield Interceptor) to Italian to German, through all of the Jap stuff. Spent time working in Honda dealership back in the day, including a stint as service manager.

[Edit: I've never owned an air cooled American V-Twin, so that's a genre I've missed.]

For me, the best bike has always been the next bike.

If you'd like for me to send you the entire Shaw-Largiader-Glaves article simply post your address to [email protected]

Thanks, but I've already got it.

I appreciate the invitation to join you guys on your trek south next year. Can I ride my FJR instead of one of the Beemers? :lol: You guys have scared the schneike out of me and I'm parking the BMW's until I can be sure there's no final drive to fail on the G series, and until I can get a back up final drive for the K bike and strap it to the tank bag.

You know, during all those years you've been involved, I'm pretty sure that the other guys didn't all have the same bikes continuously, so I think your 4% figure is probably quite high.

I'm also pretty sure from the anecdotes that the problem seems to be exacerbated for Long Distance riders. Since few other marques seem to exhibit the same level of failures, BMW has to pay attention to this.... but I don't think it impacts folks who ride in more typical ways.

I think I'm at the other extreme on this mileage stuff. I usually have several bikes around, and the mileage gets split among them. I have NEVER kept a bike beyond 30,000 miles, so the idea that something bad might happen at high mileage isn't something that bugs me as a rule.

Meanwhile, my average per year mileage is creeping upward as I spend more time on the interstate and less time in the twisties. In the last 12 months, I've spent pretty close to 18,000 miles on the road. My usual average is just 12,000. I think the increase is because both the FJR and the K bike do so well on the interstate. They are more or less immune from the truck wake wobble that I've experienced with other big bikes. Even so, the highest mileage bike in my lot today is the Royal Enfield at about 9,000. The K bike and FJR are both around 6K. Meanwhile, I like them both well enough to keep them, so I think they'll both be around for longer than usual.

 

[BugR]

What does this translate to?

"Desmodromic operation of the gas lever function for even better and more precise gas dosage"

It's on the spec site from the original post

Chris

 

[El Toro]

What does this translate to?
"Desmodromic operation of the gas lever function for even better and more precise gas dosage"

It's on the spec site from the original post

Chris

They're using two cables on their butterflies (desmodromic just means that there are both positive opening and closing mechanisms). It has nothing to do with the pulse width or the injectors per se.

 

[Ignacio]

I think I'm at the other extreme on this mileage stuff. I usually have several bikes around, and the mileage gets split among them. I have NEVER kept a bike beyond 30,000 miles, so the idea that something bad might happen at high mileage isn't something that bugs me as a rule.

That certainly will decrease the chance you have a failure personally. I would imagine you could imagine the frustation by the BMW folks that do ride their precicion German engineered bikes greater distances and more years.

There is an effort underway for people to self report FD issues. Quite an interesting attempt at some empirical evidence that should make BMW squirm. It's interesting to see failures as early as 5800 miles and one that seemingly is only a little noisy and wobbly at 338225. And to see a 2008 RT with less than 25,000 miles....

Most interesting to me is the mid-range ones with failures in the 10,000 to 40,000 mile range. There seem a lot of them.

 

[radman]

The most telling, for me, was the fact that someone, here I believe, related as to how they are carrying a final drive assembly in the top case-Beemerdons? Pretty much says it. Even with their prodigious capacity, Wings didn't carry a chunk of frame with them, and ticky feejers always got you to the less than spectacular deazler service departments...........I remember when Beemers once were the high mileage champions, one of the things owners justified the price tag with. No more, eh?

 

[Ignacio]

..........I remember when Beemers once were the high mileage champions, one of the things owners justified the price tag with. No more, eh?

In the high mile BMW community folks I know....there seems to be a growing concensus that older BMWs were high mileage horses and newer BMWs are at much more risk of failure. I certainly don't know where or if there is a line that one can firmly drawn and/or with which models of bike or final drive.

My experience has been that the riders with decade-old faded Aerostiches with similarly aged and well-maintained BMWs tend to not have less tension in their face when they go over bumps.

For me, if someone gave me a choice between a free, brand-new, low-mileage BMW manufactured in the past few years or a higher mileage FJR that was just diagnosed with the tick and had to pay money....I'd choose the FJR every single time.

 

[beemerdons]

The most telling, for me, was the fact that someone, here I believe, related as to how they are carrying a final drive assembly in the top case-Beemerdons? Pretty much says it. Even with their prodigious capacity, Wings didn't carry a chunk of frame with them, and ticky feejers always got you to the less than spectacular deazler service departments...........I remember when Beemers once were the high mileage champions, one of the things owners justified the price tag with. No more, eh?

https://www.beemerboneyard.com/fidrun1.html Hello radman, I always enjoy your posts because reading them tells me that you have a mechanical mind like myself. I've already secured a seventeen ball bearing final drive unit for the Mexico trip, paid $295 with shipping. My '96 R1100GS utilizes the nineteen ball bearing final drive, but this same unit would fit either a '94 Oilhead Type 259 or '05 R1150RT; which my "Ingrid" is & will be the bike I'm riding to Guatemala. Another AZBeemer has placed a "will call" order with www.beemerboneyard.com when an EVO Style (open hole) final drive becomes available.

radman: If you go to the beemerboneyard picture link above - the long direction length across the lever strut is 11", across the perpendicular face is 7" and the depth is 3.5." So the unit is not physically that big and weighs about exactly the same as SkooterG's purse. R1200RT/GS/RS "open hole" units are physically the same size and actually weigh less than old styles.

As a forty year Beemerphile, does this piss me off? Hell yes, it is asinine to even consider this course of action. But the reality of the matter is my firm friendships that go along with riding in the BMW Community for forty years. This will be my fourth BMW of Mexico Moto Clubs International Rally. Besides riding to Jalisco this year; I have previously been to Oaxaca and Cuernavaca. I'll see friends from Estados Unidos, Canada, Germany and other European countries I have traveled in.

My BMW Christmas Wish? I wish BMW Motorrad would accept responsibility and get on to developing a workable final drive!!

 

[radman]

Hello radman, I always enjoy your posts because reading them tells me that you have a mechanical mind like myself. I've already secured a seventeen ball bearing final drive unit for the Mexico trip, paid $295 with shipping. My '96 R1100GS utilizes the nineteen ball bearing final drive, but this same unit would fit either a '94 Oilhead Type 259 or '05 R1150RT; which my "Ingrid" is & will be the bike I'm riding to Guatemala. Another AZBeemer has placed a "will call" order with www.beemerboneyard.com when an EVO Style (open hole) final drive becomes available.
My BMW Christmas Wish? I wish BMW Motorrad would accept responsibility and get on to developing a workable final drive!!

The fire extinguisher foam cleans them up nicely!

 

[Warchild]

The fire extinguisher foam cleans them up nicely!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Y'all on that Mexico trip should check out TurboDave's new carrying setup below.... you could carry a spare final drive for each in the entire riding party!

Helping......

 

[fjr]

I had an 04 K12GT and was not impressed and I like and still have BMWs. (R12S and R65)

I think the 05 FJR I have is close to perfect.

 

[Brian R]

I'm also pretty sure from the anecdotes that the problem seems to be exacerbated for Long Distance riders. Since few other marques seem to exhibit the same level of failures, BMW has to pay attention to this.... but I don't think it impacts folks who ride in more typical ways.
I think I'm at the other extreme on this mileage stuff. I usually have several bikes around, and the mileage gets split among them. I have NEVER kept a bike beyond 30,000 miles, so the idea that something bad might happen at high mileage isn't something that bugs me as a rule.

Meanwhile, my average per year mileage is creeping upward as I spend more time on the interstate and less time in the twisties. In the last 12 months, I've spent pretty close to 18,000 miles on the road. My usual average is just 12,000. I think the increase is because both the FJR and the K bike do so well on the interstate. They are more or less immune from the truck wake wobble that I've experienced with other big bikes. Even so, the highest mileage bike in my lot today is the Royal Enfield at about 9,000. The K bike and FJR are both around 6K. Meanwhile, I like them both well enough to keep them, so I think they'll both be around for longer than usual.

I believe the point IS that BMW's were always considered the reliability champs and were therefore the bike of preference for long distance riders or people who put many miles on their machines (and for that reason worth the premium paid to own and operate). It's understandable that a more casual rider like yourself would not perceive there is a problem but the hordes of LD riders grudgingly moving away from their beloved BMW's says differently.

I am one who likes to purchased used "garage queens" (because I will put some big miles on them after someone puts about 4K on them over one or two years) but would never (at least now) consider buying a used shaftie BMW from the last two generations - I want to finish my rallies. On the other hand I have no problem at all with my competitors using them.

Ignacio - you won that effin rally with a great ride (bike choice is part of the rally - and you beat a severe Kool-Aid drinker).

I guess riders will just have to wait and see if the "new improved" 1300 shaft is a fix or not.

Brian R.

 

[Ignacio]

Ignacio - you won that effin rally with a great ride (bike choice is part of the rally - and you beat a severe Kool-Aid drinker).
I guess riders will just have to wait and see if the "new improved" 1300 shaft is a fix or not.

Oh, I know. I think it was similar parts my routing skills, riding skills, BMW brand loyalty, and my Jedi mind skills to convince various clerks and gas pumps to not hold me up.

And you know too that I hope BMW has actually fixed it in the 2009 crop.

 

[El Toro]

IS that BMW's were always considered the reliability champs and were therefore the bike of preference for long distance riders or people who put many miles on their machines (and for that reason worth the premium paid to own and operate). It's understandable that a more casual rider like yourself would not perceive there is a problem but the hordes of LD riders grudgingly moving away from their beloved BMW's says differently.
I am one who likes to purchased used "garage queens" (because I will put some big miles on them after someone puts about 4K on them over one or two years) but would never (at least now) consider buying a used shaftie BMW from the last two generations - I want to finish my rallies. On the other hand I have no problem at all with my competitors using them.

I can't see the plus side to making rides into "forced marches," but that appears to be the goal of a lot of LD riders. The miles become the goal of the trip. I enjoy the going, but I also enjoy the being there. There are a lot of folks who have gone everywhere and never been anywhere. Sort of parallel to the idea that some folks know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

The wisdom in the idea that a bike is a "garage queen," or a "trailer queen," or any other kinda "queen," compared to a bike that gets run into the ground before its time, remains a mystery to me.

I've pretty much stopped buying used motorcycles.... The internet has driven the spirit of a "used bike adventure" out of me. I used to be more willing to roll the dice, and a lot of the bikes I've owned were so-called "garage queens." However with the advent of the internet and the development of "forums," there are too many folks helping other folks prematurely turn their bikes into roaches. Die entropy des Motorraddes wird immer Groesser. Between the PC IIIs, the Motoman break ins, all the aftermarket fixes for dubious problems, I'd rather be the first one riding.

Moto Scusi's four laws can be more or less stated as:

1. All motorcycles are on the path to becoming roaches.

2. A diligent and competent owner can delay the progress of Moto Scusi's first law.

3. An incompetent or indifferent manufacturer or importer can negate Moto Scusi's second law.

4. When owners band together to facilitate the operation of Moto Scusi's second law, it may accelerate the progress of Moto Scusi's first law.

I guess we all make our own fun.

 

[Brian R]

I can't see the plus side to making rides into "forced marches," but that appears to be the goal of a lot of LD riders. The miles become the goal of the trip. I enjoy the going, but I also enjoy the being there. There are a lot of folks who have gone everywhere and never been anywhere. Sort of parallel to the idea that some folks know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Nothing "Forced" about it - just as you imply below - different strokes for different folks. Since we are trading barbs on motorcycle usage....Some like to ride 4,000 miles a year - say they did it on "Twisty" roads, or were "taking it all in" to make themselves feel OK about keeping their $20K toy in the garage most of the time. Others only need an abbreviated "experience" of any single place, are there for the ride, and do not feel like 4K is much of a good week. Some of those that consider 4K an easy week like to buy the bikes of the former at a discounted price because they are barely used (ergo - garage queens). I did notice though that you include your IBA number in your sig line even though you want to deride people who put on more than a few miles. Guess there is something about the "Forced March" that you take pride in.

The wisdom in the idea that a bike is a "garage queen," or a "trailer queen," or any other kinda "queen," compared to a bike that gets run into the ground before its time, remains a mystery to me.
I've pretty much stopped buying used motorcycles.... The internet has driven the spirit of a "used bike adventure" out of me. I used to be more willing to roll the dice, and a lot of the bikes I've owned were so-called "garage queens." However with the advent of the internet and the development of "forums," there are too many folks helping other folks prematurely turn their bikes into roaches. Die entropy des Motorrades wird immer Groesser. Between the PC IIIs, the Motoman break ins, all the aftermarket fixes for dubious problems, I'd rather be the first one riding.

I have absolutely no trouble making a judgment on a piece of machinery and the value of such after it is taken off the showroom floor. Really do not need to see a set of Zero's on the odo or other guarantees, and am happy to let the first owner test ride the bike to make sure that it did not have any serious mfg defects.

I guess we all make our own fun.

On that we can agree - what we disagree on is the failure rate of BMW motorcycles. I say that when they are used....not hard, just simply used and maintained as intended, they are no longer reliable. Usage by people who actually put long miles on them are bearing that out to be fact. That is why in the LD community they have a very high failure rate in rallies - these are the 40K a year folks, not the 4K group. The 4K group will have more problems as the years roll on and their second owners finally accumulate a few miles on the bike, or the bike never accumulates the mileage (as most will not) and rusts away. That in my opinion is a shame because it was not that case before, their reputation was built on reliability and longevity. To get back to the new bike - the purpose of this thread - the BMW folks are all speculating about it being a new-new rear drive. That is just a shame they even have to do that.

Brian R.

IBA #335

 

[El Toro]

I did notice though that you include your IBA number in your sig line even though you want to deride people who put on more than a few miles. Guess there is something about the "Forced March" that you take pride in.

Good point, and I'd forgotten. I've taken it off so as not to give the impression that I am an accomplished LDR. I was not deriding people who put on "more than a few miles." I was observing that if the goal of the journey is to rack up the miles, much is missed, and little is known of what was missed.

To get back to the new bike - the purpose of this thread - the BMW folks are all speculating about it being a new-new rear drive. That is just a shame they even have to do that.

I think the original purpose of this thread was the op's desire to share his excitement about the new K1300GT. As usual, this is a bad place to share excitement about a BMW, which is why when I started the supermotard thread recently, I did not mention any brands. Probably a safe brand would be Ducati, and maybe Triumph. Bringing up something good about BMW is sort of like trotting a 170 point buck across a paid hunt's stand at 80 yards.

The thread quickly degenerated into a bunch of whining from folks who've never personally had a final drive failure, many of whom never owned a BMW even "back in the day" when they had the reputation of Oliver Wendell Holmes veritable One Hoss Shay.

It inevitably goes this way.

 

[Warchild]

The thread quickly degenerated into a bunch of whining from folks who've never personally had a final drive failure,

A completely specious argument. You do not have to have personally experienced a final drive failure as a pre-qualification to make observations about their reliability. You can just look at the facts.

Or... you can look into the anguished faces of the riders as they pull into the parking lot.... as a passenger of the flatbed truck which is hauling their broke-**** beemer back to rally headquarters. You can watch the tears stream down their face as they describe the AGONY when the realization hits: they saved, skimped and starved themselves for several years to prepare for this event, had the massive good fortune to get drawn from the THOUSANDS of applications submitted for every Iron Butt Rally, then went out and RODE THEIR *** OFF to do the very best they can, even have garnered a Top 25% position at the start of the last leg of the event... and had it all come to a *grinding* halt. Literally.

I have personally done this. I even held them as they sobbed. Think I am kidding? I am not. I experienced this in the 2007 Iron Butt Rally... strong men, crying like an infant due to exhaustion and brutal realization: their dream has been shattered. They do not have the wherewithal to try running again, they knew this, and the only status they will ever know is the three letters every Iron Butt Rally entrant fears: DNF.

I also watched these same types of strong men sob at the end of the 2005 Iron Butt Rally.

Also at the end of the 2003 Iron Butt Rally. That event - over a half decade ago - truly marked the beginning of the Dark Times for beemer owners in the Endurance Riding community. While the final drive issue had already been present for years beforehand, the number of beemers who had mechanical DNFs that year was staggering.

Consider the words of 2003 IBR Scribe Bob Higdon, who penned the following passage on his Day 10 report:

Will the Last BMW Running Please Turn out the Lights?
BMW motorcycles constituted about 50% of the starting field. Tonight they constitute more than 90% of the mechanical breakdowns. Jeff Earls' K1200LT ground to a halt late today in Dickenson, North Dakota with a rear wheel bearing failure. Earls, riding the entire distance with John O'Keefe, was having a magnificent ride, grabbing every bonus that meant anything on the final leg. With any luck he and O'Keefe would have been close to a Top Ten finish. Now he's just another DNF.

Had enough of BMW rear end collapses, have you? Not quite. Don't forget to count the rear end of Jim and Donna Phillips' K1200LT. It dropped dead earlier today as they were going up Pikes Peak in Colorado, the largest individual bonus on the entire leg. Had they made it to the top, they would have guaranteed themselves a Top Twenty finish. Instead they nursed the bike back down the mountain, caught a ride into Colorado Springs, and bought an 1800cc Gold Wing.

It gets even uglier. Yesterday Jim Owen, who stood 8th in Maine, took a photograph of Eric Jewell and Brent Ames in the process of replacing the alternator belt on Eric's BMW R1150RT at the Shanksville, Pennsylvania bonus stop. A few hours later the belt on Owen's R1150RT failed. He had no replacement, couldn't find one, and will be lucky at this point to finish the rally at all.

Mike Kneebone and I sat in the hotel room tonight and reflected on the string of BMWs that have bitten the dust in the last ten days. We shook our heads. Between us we have around 800,000 miles on these bikes.

"If you're looking for something to write about in an epilog," he said, "this is it."

He's right. BMWs could easily finish 1-2-3 in this rally, a tribute that will be due far more to the talented singers than to the ugly song. In the 2003 IBR BMW's song has been the shriek of alternator belts coming apart and the wail of rear ends seizing.