grumpypoos Gen 1 transmission repair

[grumpypoo]

3/4 or a turn herp derp.

I meant 120 degrees from starting point that would be 1/4.

Oh well I'll see what the engine does when I start it. Worse case we can have a "grumpypoo engine rebuild".

Best thing about that? It'll still prolly be cheaper than having the dealer fix the transmission :3

 

[mikerider]

Grumpypoo, I learned so much from you and your attitude in approaching things and solving problems. Confucius said, "when walking with 3 people, one got to be my teacher". So true.

 

[grumpypoo]

Grumpypoo, I learned so much from you and your attitude in approaching things and solving problems.

Very happy to hear I'm helping, but I'm going to be honest we are both learning from this process. The best advice I can ever give? Screw being scared and just do it.

 

[wfooshee]

Well, in MY circles, 120 degrees is 1/3rd of a turn......

But turning it backwards is not useful...... The cam chain tensioner is on the slack side of the chain, the side behind the crankshaft pulley. The part of the chain before the pulley is kept tight by the drag of the camshafts being pulled along. When you turn the engine backwards that side of the chain goes very slack, and going forward then could very well miss a tooth on the sprocket if the slack chain hangs far enough.

It might not be as much of a factor with the engine upside down, but generally, you don't want to be turning the motor backwards.

As for freezing up, it would need months and months and months for anything to corrode itself together in there.

Absolutely check the timing, but don't automatically lay it on the, um.... previous tard.

Also, absolutely check compression before firing it up. If you bent a valve, you want to know about it. I certainly hope not!

Good to see those drive gears side by side. I don't think you would have even been able to install that shaft with the Gen-II gear on it, but with those differences in the teeth, I don't think it would have worked very well even if you could.

One other thing..... I remember you mentioning the "gear thingy the clutch housing spins on." If it's the thingie I pointed to in the picture below, then yes, it's timed..... That is one of the balancers, and the engine will be ROUGH if that's not in the right place.

There is a punch mark on the balancer. You put the engine at Top Dead Center, find the tooth of the clutch housing that's pointed straight at the centerline of the crankshaft, and call that tooth #1. The punch mark on the balancer goes between teeth 16 and 17. If you can't get the clutch housing in and have that tooth count right, then you need to remove the balancer at the top of the case, behind the cylinder block, put the clutch housing in, and then reinstall the balancer to fix its timing. I found when I was putting the clutch housing in that it was quite difficult to line up both the balancer and the dogs behind the housing that went into the oil pump drive. I found that the balancer naturally hung with the timing mark exposed, and I could get the right gear on the clutch housing (primary driven gear in the parts fiche) meshed, but then I either had it wrong at the crankshaft, or I couldn't get the oil drive dogs to fit. It took me a LONG time to get that back in, because I did NOT want to have to pull the balancer, but I did get it without having to pull the balancer.

 

[grumpypoo]

Yea it's that gear thingy

I looked in the manual to figure out what the hell it was. I didn't see anything about having to align a certain tooth/teeth on the housing tho.

I won't be pulling that balancer out so patience will be a must with this one.

Current tard owner likes to blame other people makes him feel better

I've probably knocked it outta time but honestly I'm starting to slow down the rebuild mainly because it hit me tonight after this is done its back to oil changes so more work equals happy grumpy (possible paradox)

I backed it up in case I was hitting a valve. I know I know engines go 1 way.

Cylinder 3 really concerns me by the amount of oil dripping out of the exhaust side. So I put it to its compression stroke and will see if it still leaks (if so we have worn rings yay!!!) At least it'll be easy to get to tho I'm already there at this point.

 

[grumpypoo]

Well gentlemen I got to thinking and its forced me awake (it's midnight right now)

I looked up the cost for valves MY GOD CHEAP! Head gasket is only 38 bucks as well. Sooo I figured once I get this turned over if I run a leak down and find really bad results I'm still in the clear with pricing.

The down however is machining. Why go through all this trouble to just leave nasty *** carbon everywhere.

Let's pray that can be a many years later thread tho

 

[Mihalis fjr]

About the balancers have a look at the pages 438-444.Especially in the page 443 in the pdf.

https://www.journey.cz/moto/navody/Yamaha%20fjr1300_Service_Manual.pdf

 

[ionbeam]

...As for what makes me think they would freeze? Rainy here in Texas with a motor in a garage it's more of a rust prevention on the walls.
I think it's OK honestly. A bent valve would/should make noise consentently IIRC...

The Gen I engine has ceramic composite plated cylinder walls which don't rust. The aluminum of the block can oxidize (which technically is another name for rusting) but the way Al oxidizes is different than Fe in terms of causing parts to freeze up. When Al oxidizes it seals off air (O2) and prevents additional oxidation, Fe rust is porous, allowing air to contact continually deeper layers.

If you bent a valve, when you rotate the engine it will not move up and down with the cam like the other valves. Bent valves don't necessarily make noise. The FJR engine is indeed an interference engine and will bend and crush valves very easily. DAMHIK.

Cylinder 3 really concerns me by the amount of oil dripping out of the exhaust side. So I put it to its compression stroke and will see if it still leaks (if so we have worn rings yay!!!) At least it'll be easy to get to tho I'm already there at this point.

One thing is for sure, you do not have worn rings. The FJR is prone to sticking rings but not ring wear.

If you have oil in the cylinder on a FJR engine it will most likely be due to the stem seals and/or valve guides, but not the valve. As mentioned at the beginning of your engine/transmission threads, a somewhat rare few Gen I engines had stem seals which were too tight which starved the valve guides of oil and caused valve guide wear and eventually led to oil being passed through the cylinder. The check specified by Yamaha was to examine the inside of the exhaust header pipes for traces of oil (not the cylinder head exhaust port).

...There is a punch mark on the balancer. You put the engine at Top Dead Center, find the tooth of the clutch housing that's pointed straight at the centerline of the crankshaft, and call that tooth #1. The punch mark on the balancer goes between teeth 16 and 17...

My '04 had TWO punch marks on each balancer. If the balancers are allowed to swing free when the engine is upside down the incorrect punch mark swings up and becomes misleadingly close to the alignment with teeth 16/17. DAMHIK. I dunno if your engine will have balancers with two punch marks 60° apart, but I thought it would be worth mentioning to possibly prevent angst later.

Exhausted valves:

The valves are standing on a flat surface and they all should have parallel stems. Even though they aren't standing next to each other, the two oily valves came from cyl #3.

 

[mcatrophy]

Having been following this thread (with some considerable apprehension), I couldn't see wfooshee's picture too clearly - that's NOT a criticism, it's a good sharp image, just a little too dark for my monitor.

Tried a little enhancement, came up with this:

Click for the whole image.

Might help those without their engine in bits see what's being talked about a little more easily.

 

[Geezer]

It is hard to believe that someone would open the cases and not replace the worn parts, but it is possible that someone did just that. They opened it up, or paid a shop to open it up, saw the problem, and decided to trade it in rather than fix it. I would be very hesitant to do business with that particular dealer since they refused to acknowledge that the gearbox needed repairs. Know what I mean... nod nod, wink wink.

 

[Bounce]

If it's the thingie I pointed to in the picture below, then yes, it's timed..... That is one of the balancers, and the engine will be ROUGH if that's not in the right place.

May I take this time to encourage people to PLEASE use highly contrasting colors when doing photos like this. I had to have my wife point it out to me after spending minutes trying to find even a hint of what was being referenced. Color blindness does have disadvantages.

Red on black might as well be invisible ink.

Thank you for your consideration.

 

[mcatrophy]

...May I take this time to encourage people to PLEASE use highly contrasting colors when doing photos like this. I had to have my wife point it out to me after spending minutes trying to find even a hint of what was being referenced. Color blindness does have disadvantages.

Red on black might as well be invisible ink.

...

Any use?

 

[Mihalis fjr]

There is only ONE punch mark on the balancer gear for sure!

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Probably ionbeam you mean these TWO punch marks?!

 

[ionbeam]

There is only ONE punch mark on the balancer gear for sure!....

Not always true for sure! My engine had two sets of punch marks 60° apart on both front and rear balancers and the local Yamaha Regional Tech also confirmed with Mama Yamaha that some balancers do indeed have two (sets of) marks but only one is correct and nobody knew why there were two (sets of) marks on some parts.

Edit: While I was typing Mihalis was adding a second post on this subject. I won't call the FSM wrong on this, let's just say it omitted mention that there may be a second set of marks 60° apart.

Edit II: The Regional Tech said that after looking into my balancers, he found a number of other parts in the engine with second markings that the FSM didn't mention. My '04 FJR was built in '03, perhaps it was just early World and USA Gen Is that had these 'features'. By golly, someone would really have to tear into an engine to find this; I'm pretty sure it's rare for people to go this far.

Edit III: The reason I know this, unlike DAMHIK, is my FJR engine was reassembled using the wrong marks on the balancers. When my FJR idled on the side stand you could feel the asphalt vibrate under your feet more than 6 feet away. Be jealous Harley, be very jealous :lol:

 

[Mihalis fjr]

My '03/abs European model / '04 US model has one punch mark on the balancer gear for sure.How i know it?

Some months before i posted this thread : https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/165759-roughness-and-muffled-noise-most-at-idle/

To check if something or not is wrong there i pulled out the clutch basket to check the springs and the bearing of the clutch basket.

In the installation of the clutch basket (Not the easiest thing in the world!)You need other two hands from a friend,because with the one hand you must hold the clutch basket,with the other you must align the two gears of the basket with a screwdriver through the hole of the basket,also you must align the slot clutch basket/oil pump,and the other hand of your friend he will try with a thin screwdriver or a something like that to align the punch mark of the balancer gear between the 16 & 17 teeth of the clutch basket as the picture shows..Not very easy because the weight of the balancer shaft is underside when you leave it free and it must go on the upper side.

The balancer gear in my bike has only one punch mark for sure!

Really i don't know why in some engines has two punch marks as you said..Very odd and very confused if someone want to do a job there!

 

[ionbeam]

...Really i don't know why in some engines has two punch marks as you said..Very odd.

We speculated that aligning all the undocumented punch marks and arrows would result in a 100 hp French FJR :lol: There are a number of ways that engines could have ended up with parts marked differently. Complicating it, the FSM isn't always complete or always accurate just to muddy things up.

Once again, World market FJRs prove superior over the unicolor USA FJRs

 

[Mihalis fjr]

...Really i don't know why in some engines has two punch marks as you said..Very odd.

We speculated that aligning all the undocumented punch marks and arrows would result in a 100 hp French FJR

There are a number of ways that engines could have ended up with parts marked differently. Complicating it, the FSM isn't always complete or always accurate just to muddy things up.

Once again, World market FJRs prove superior over the unicolor USA FJRs

I forgot to tell,that i did this job two times,because the first time i forgot to align the punch mark between the 16 & 17 teeth,not ''forgot'' exactly, i didn't knew about this punch mark on the gear.

When i started and rode the bike,i felt that i rode a pneumatic drill!!It had unbelievable vibrations!!

Then,i learned about that..

''grumpypoo''

Could you tell us if there is one or two punch marks on the balancer gear?

 

[grumpypoo]

I am kinda liking the idea of a pneumatic FJR

 

[Bounce]

...May I take this time to encourage people to PLEASE use highly contrasting colors when doing photos like this. I had to have my wife point it out to me after spending minutes trying to find even a hint of what was being referenced. Color blindness does have disadvantages.

Red on black might as well be invisible ink.

...

Any use?

Mucho bettero. Muchas grassy.