LED H4 replacements (at the risk of being labeled 'search defective')

[900gc]

This is exciting.
So, the best way to run the H4 LED conversion lamps would be (unlike the H4 Halogens) to run the upward emitting LED only while in low beam mode, but to then run both Up and down LEDs when in high beams!! This is brilliant!! (sorry for the bad pun) as it will eliminate one of the major foibles of the FJR headlamp buckets from day one, lack of foreground illumination on high beam.

Fred, this is exactly how the H4 LED conversions work, i.e., the high-beam LED is powered-on (lit) at the same time as the low-beam LED. Both emitters light up, providing light from both sides of the unit to the reflector, to be cast down the road.

The problem, and it's a BIG one, is that due to the design of these units, the high-beam LED is only pointing down, towards the bottom of the reflector, exactly like the low-beam LED is only pointing up, at the top of the reflector. This gives full coverage of the low-beam, even in high-beam mode, but the light from the high-beam emitter is only illuminating half of the reflector.

So in high-beam mode, you get all the benefits of low-beam, but only half of what you should be getting from the high-beam emitter.

Again, take a look at the picture I posted above and you'll see the amount of shadows created when the LED is in high-beam mode, i.e., both high and low emitters lit at the same time.

Even with the halogen lamps (that it was designed for) the high beam was always pretty bad because it shifted all of the light up too high, into too small of a vertical range that the reflector was focused at, and it left the foreground nearly dark. I understand the idea that you do not want too much scatter or foreground illumination when on high beam as it diminishes your distance vision, but it was excessively focused previously, and this seems like the panacea of FJR lighting.

I think that's why SO many FJRs seem to have their headlights aimed too high...to get the "correct" low-beam, the high-beam is simply too high. But with the high-beam set "just right" you get a "dark spot" in front of the bike.

It will require rewiring your bike slightly since the headlight relays will only want to run either the high or low beam LEDs, but with the reduced power consumption of LEDs we should have plenty of overhead power capacity to run both LEDS simultaneously and still be below the draw of the 55W halogen high beams alone.

I don't think that would be an issue with these LEDs. They (through their own "ballast") provide power to both emitters. The big fly in the ointment is the high-beam emitters just don't function the same as high-beam H4 halogens or HIDs. It's not the quality of the light...it's the quantity.

That's a good point about point about the high beam. The halogen bulbs provide a 360 degree illumination from that filament whereas these particular LEDs do not. That is probably the same reason the fanless ones failed to perform well in my Honda Pilot (post #46).

There does appear to be LEDs on the market that have a 360 degree design (and no cooling devices?) for those 'single filament' applications. I'm thinking if the best design for an H4 LED would be to have a combination of a directional low beam chip and a ring of 360 degree chips for the high beam.

My dream auxillary light set up is to have either the Hella Bi-Xenon or Bi-LED headlight modules in addition. You would have to make up custom brackets though. Also big $$$.... $1,200-$1,400 per pair!

https://www.rallylights.com/all/lights/headlamps/90bl-hella-bi-led-90mm-headlamp-module-hi-low-beam.html

https://www.rallylights.com/all/lights/headlamps/hella-bi-xenon-90mm-hi-lo-headlamp.html

 

[Fred W]

Fred, I've been running HID in my FJR since early 2011 with no deterioration of the reflector. I don't know why your results were different. This image pretty well shows the beam cutoff with HID, which only lights the upper reflector on low beam.

Yes, correct. The low beam uses the upper half of the reflector. The degradation is not as easy to see by looking at it with the lights running. But with them off, look closely inside your headlight bucket at the area of the reflector directly above the lamp capsules. You may see that the shiny silver is tarnishing or turning a hazy gray. Because that hazing is occurring in the upper half of the reflector it has to be reducing the beam output of the low beams. Granted, they are probably still brighter than the halogens with a perfect reflector surface.

Both of my headlight buckets that were subjected to long term use of the HIDs were doing that, and that same thing had also been reported by some others, which was why I even looked in the first place. My not re-installing the HIDs (a third time) had more to do with laziness than the reflector degrading. But it was just something that I did notice.

@Howie - What I meant about a missing fundamental was that, with the stock halogen H4 you block half the light output from a single 50W filament in low beam, and in high beam you get the full output from a single light filament. With these LEDs on low beam you get the light output of a single LED, and on high beam your get two LEDs. So quantity of light difference betyween low and high is still roughly the same (double).

The "advantage" these LEDs would seem to have is the fact that we can have both the low beam and the high beam on together without exceeding the alternator wattage capacity. The amount of light thrown far down the road may be slightly decreased in high beam because we would be spreading the total light output better vertically, doing a better job of filling the foreground.

Some of the best headlights I've seen are the HID projectors on my '03 SAAB 9-3 Sport Sedan. They use a shutter to provide the low beam cutoff, so when the shutter is retracted the light intensity is the exact same as on low beam but with a full field of light. I find that this kind of an approach works better, especially when switching between high and low beam for oncoming traffic a lot, as the high beam intensity and low beam intensity are closer to the same, so your eyes don't have to try to compensate.

When you have the "Eyes of Dog" high beams running and then have to dip to a much wimpier low beam there is a period where you are essentially running blind until your eyes adjust for the lower illumination level.

edit - actually, going back and re-reading your post I think that we are saying the same thing, differently.

That's a good point about point about the high beam. The halogen bulbs provide a 360 degree illumination from that filament whereas these particular LEDs do not. That is probably the same reason the fanless ones failed to perform well in my Honda Pilot (post #46).
There does appear to be LEDs on the market that have a 360 degree design (and no cooling devices?) for those 'single filament' applications. I'm thinking if the best design for an H4 LED would be to have a combination of a directional low beam chip and a ring of 360 degree chips for the high beam.

Yes! This is my biggest fear with the LED H4 replacement lights. LEDs are generally quite directional. So those upward and downward facing LEDs will cast light mostly down and up after bouncing off the reflectors. The halogen lamp filaments radiate light (radially) in a 360 degree arc on high beam and 180 degrees on low. I fear that the light that is cast to the sides is what will be missing on the LEDs, and that is a pretty important part of the headlights beam, illuminating stuff on the road sides.

I'll have to look more at the actual results and photos of beam patterns to see if my fear is well founded or not.

edit - Slight tangent: Has anyone ever experimented with a mod to leave the low beam halogen filaments on during high beam operation? Or maybe just leave one of the two low beam filaments on for foreground fill?

I know this might be a no-go on the wattage starved 1st gens, but later gen bikes should be able to handle the extra 50-100W of lighting. The question would be, can the headlight bucket take the extra heat.

 

[mcatrophy]

edit - Slight tangent: Has anyone ever experimented with a mod to leave the low beam halogen filaments on during high beam operation? Or maybe just leave one of the two low beam filaments on for foreground fill?

I know this might be a no-go on the wattage starved 1st gens, but later gen bikes should be able to handle the extra 50-100W of lighting. The question would be, can the headlight bucket take the extra heat.

Not experimented with leaving both beams on, but on all European FJRs there's a "passing" light switch that turns on the main beam, leaving the dipped beam on, centre of the pic below (a bit dark as well, sorry)

(Click on image for larger view)



On the Gen III it's a rocker on the high/low beam switch, labelled "pass":



As to the generator, I just tried with mine. Started the engine, battery voltage went to 14.2 immediately after starting, engine on fast idle:



Then I pressed the "pass" switch, voltage dropped to 14.0.



Didn't try anything else, but that shows the generator has sufficient for that load.

I don't know how the reflectors will stand up to 200 plus watts being dissipated, however.

 

[Fred W]

Good thinking there!! (Knew it was there but I did not realize the lows were left on when you hit flash to pass)

Maybe we'd also need to install a little blower in the headlight bucket running only when on high beam?

I'll have to play with that the next chance I get to see if it would give the light output we are looking for.

 

[RadioHowie]

Not experimented with leaving both beams on, but on all European FJRs there's a "passing" light switch that turns on the main beam <snip>
As to the generator, I just tried with mine. Started the engine, battery voltage went to 14.2 immediately after starting, engine on fast idle:

Then I pressed the "pass" switch, voltage dropped to 14.0.

Didn't try anything else, but that shows the generator has sufficient for that load.

I don't know how the reflectors will stand up to 200 plus watts being dissipated, however.

I have my ZRX wired to duplicate this procedure, as in with the low-beam selected, only the low-beam is on, but with high-beam selected, both low- and high-beams are illuminated. It is perfect....long range illumination and beam throw, combined with excellent illumination close to the bike and to the sides. It's the best of both worlds.

MCA, if you wouldn't mind reporting back, next time you're out riding at night, use your "flash-to-pass" button to illuminate both high and low beams simultaneously. Drive that way for a short (or long?) distance and simply report back here on the quality of the combined illumination.

There is a simple jumper that can be done on the FJR to accomplish this, by powering the low beam relay when the high beam is selected, yet leaving the low beams only when low beam is selected. I realize that the watt-limited Gen I doesn't have a lot of amperage to spare, but as I run zero electrical farkles, I have the wattage to spare and I'm not really worried that running four halogen filaments simultaneously is going to dissolve the front of my FJR.

EDIT: Fred posted my exact thoughts while I was typing this. He duplicated exactly what I was wondering, but didn't realize the USA Gen IIIs have this "flash-to-pass" function, so Fred, you can simulate the exact same thing I've asked MCA to attempt...try it out and report back on the quality of illumination when combining high and low-beams together. Thanks!

 

[RossKean]

In addition to the extra load on the stator and the real possibility of cooking the reflector in the headlight bucket, I would want to know whether the stock wiring (and fuses) are up to a continuous draw double the normal.

 

[TomInPA]

Fred, I checked the reflectors (with lights off) before I posted. There is no degradation occurring on the reflector. I think there is wide variability on how much heat from HID may be transferred to the bulb base. My bulbs have a ceramic base, and no part of the bulb body actually contacts the reflector, it is isolated by the H4 mounting flange. It could also be better UV filtering in some lights.

My understanding is, at least theoretically, HID should produce less heat than resistance filament bulbs. I have seen bad implementations that caused arcing from the electrode outside of the bulb capsule that resulted in the formation of haze on the lens and reflector.

 

[RadioHowie]

In addition to the extra load on the stator and the real possibility of cooking the reflector in the headlight bucket, I would want to know whether the stock wiring (and fuses) are up to a continuous draw double the normal.

Good questions...extra load on the stator? Sure. Possibility of cooking the reflector? Have no idea. Stock wiring up to a continuous draw? The high-beam and low-beam circuits are two separately defined circuits. Wouldn't be any different than running them continuously, but separately.

The only question that troubles ME not having an answer for is "cooking the reflector". While running two filaments at one doubles the light, does it really double the heat? I'll leave that up to a thermal dynamics expert to answer.

 

[RossKean]

While the supply to the Hi and Lo are different, don't both return via the same wire?

 

[RadioHowie]

While the supply to the Hi and Lo are different, don't both return via the same wire?

Again, one of the 'lectrical experts, like ionbeam or Fred can answer better than I. I don't think it would be an issue since both high and low circuits are driven by separate relays. But let a wire-wizard clarify it.

 

[Fred W]

In addition to the extra load on the stator and the real possibility of cooking the reflector in the headlight bucket, I would want to know whether the stock wiring (and fuses) are up to a continuous draw double the normal.

Good questions...extra load on the stator? Sure. Possibility of cooking the reflector? Have no idea. Stock wiring up to a continuous draw? The high-beam and low-beam circuits are two separately defined circuits. Wouldn't be any different than running them continuously, but separately.

The only question that troubles ME not having an answer for is "cooking the reflector". While running two filaments at one doubles the light, does it really double the heat? I'll leave that up to a thermal dynamics expert to answer.

Yes, absolutely. The High and Low beam filaments will have approximately the same efficiency, meaning that for the amount of total power they consume (50 or 55 watts) the same percentage will be wasted heat. Having two filaments glowing will result in nearly double the amount of heat as just one

While the supply to the Hi and Lo are different, don't both return via the same wire?

Again, one of the 'lectrical experts, like ionbeam or Fred can answer better than I. I don't think it would be an issue since both high and low circuits are driven by separate relays. But let a wire-wizard clarify it.

Since ionbeam is away on vacation this week, I guess I'll have to do. Yes, they do share the return (ground) wire, but they also share the supply wire back at input side to the High/Low relay (and before). So the headlight on/off relay and wiring will have double the current.

 

[Fred W]

My understanding is, at least theoretically, HID should produce less heat than resistance filament bulbs. I have seen bad implementations that caused arcing from the electrode outside of the bulb capsule that resulted in the formation of haze on the lens and reflector.

Yeah, that should be correct. We say that the capsule consumes 35W and we know that it produces more light energy, so intuitively that means there is less wasted heat energy. I do not know why some generate more heat than others. But it is apparent from more reports than just mine that somehow they do.

 

[Eric L]

OK some pictures of the assemblies and bits. straightforward install (as I am practiced at it now). Note the low beam only lights up the upper reflector and the high beam lights both

waiting for darkness....

 

[Justin]

Hi, I respect your Research and I hope you continue on, BUT... Don't use that pic^ as a comparison as to color temps (Kelvin).
*Snip*

The picture is just to show the difference in color temps, nothing more. You're reading into it a bit too much. Here is a picture showing the actual colors on the bike. Right is a 3 emitter in 3000k, left is a 2 emitter in 6500k. The previous picture shows the same.

 

[RadioHowie]

Wow, the more this gets discussed, the confuseder I get! Please follow along...

In addition to the extra load on the stator and the real possibility of cooking the reflector in the headlight bucket, I would want to know whether the stock wiring (and fuses) are up to a continuous draw double the normal

Good questions...extra load on the stator? Sure. Possibility of cooking the reflector? Have no idea. Stock wiring up to a continuous draw? The high-beam and low-beam circuits are two separately defined circuits. Wouldn't be any different than running them continuously, but separately.
The only question that troubles ME not having an answer for is "cooking the reflector". While running two filaments at one doubles the light, does it really double the heat? I'll leave that up to a thermal dynamics expert to answer.

Yes, absolutely. The High and Low beam filaments will have approximately the same efficiency, meaning that for the amount of total power they consume (50 or 55 watts) the same percentage will be wasted heat. Having two filaments glowing will result in nearly double the amount of heat as just one

I know that sounds logical, but it's also like saying if you have two heat sources sitting side-by-side, both putting out 500 degree, then you ultimately wind up with 1000 degrees? That DOESN'T make any sense!

While the supply to the Hi and Lo are different, don't both return via the same wire?

Since ionbeam is away on vacation this week, I guess I'll have to do. Yes, they do share the return (ground) wire, but they also share the supply wire back at input side to the High/Low relay (and before). So the headlight on/off relay and wiring will have double the current.

But wait, aren't there TWO headlight relays? One for high-beam and one for low-beam? And unless I'm reading the wiring spec wrong, the two relays are on two separate circuits, so NO circuit would be carrying more load when both relays are energized.

And Eric, SO glad you posted back on your install, but I've got an issue I'd like to address to it, too...

OK some pictures of the assemblies and bits. straightforward install (as I am practiced at it now). Note the low beam only lights up the upper reflector and the high beam lights both

Right there is the issue. Yes, the low beam LED emitter only lights up the upper (low-beam) reflector. 100% agreement there. BUT the high-beam LED emitter only lights up the lower half of the high-beam reflector, not the top half. The remainder of the total high-beam illumination is coming from the low-beam reflector, so in reality you're getting 100% of the light provided by the low-beam reflector, but only 50% of the light coming off the high-beam reflector. It's VERY important to remember that there are sharply delineated portions of the reflectors for both (and separate) high- and low-beams.

One of your pictures demonstrates that perfectly...

Look at the obvious shadows extending out left and right from the center. That ain't good. It visually describes perfectly what I'm going on about, i.e., full low-beam combined with 50% high-beam...that is what H4 LED conversions offer right now and I ain't buyin!

 

[TomInPA]

OK some pictures of the assemblies and bits. straightforward install (as I am practiced at it now). Note the low beam only lights up the upper reflector and the high beam lights both
waiting for darkness....

Oh wow! Clean looking install! I'm waiting with you.

 

[Eric L]

but... on a normal H4 arent you only running one filament to light up the top and bottom panels? In the LED, you mimic this by running both LEDs. No?

 

[RadioHowie]

but... on a normal H4 arent you only running one filament to light up the top and bottom panels?

Yes, but only when switched to high-beam.

In the LED, you mimic this by running both LEDs. No?

Unfortunately, you answered your own question....No.

In an H4 headlamp set up, their are two different filaments. The low-beam, which is shielded below the filament that only allows illumination of the upwards 50% off the reflector. And the high-beam filament, positioned closer to the base of the bulb, which is unshielded and shines 100% of the entire reflector. The problem is there are TWO distinct reflectors!

An H4 setup is a compromise. The engineers had to design a bulb with two illumination sources AND then design a reflector that utilizes those sources completely differently. The shielded low-beam source reflects off the low-beam reflector. The unshielded high-beam source, which provides unhindered 360 degree illumination, reflects off the high-beam reflector, which is shaped differently and placed closer to the base of the headlamp assembly. Essentially, there are two reflectors in the FJR and other H4 headlamps. One, farther away from the base of the assembly focus the light down, closer to the vehicle. The other, closer to the base takes ALL the light and focuses it out farther from the vehicle. Take a look at your FJR reflector with the lights off. You can't help but notice the line near the forward edge of the reflector that differentiates between high and low.

Quad-headlamp vehicle don't suffer from this compromise. Each lamps reflector is designed with one function in mind. Focus down and close for low-beam, up and out for high-beam. Two different sets of lights, two different bulbs, two different reflectors.

The ideal H4 LED conversion would have 5 led emitters on it. One in the low-beam position, illuminating upwards onto the low-beam reflector, and four in the high-beam position, place 90 degrees around the unit, with 360 degrees of illumination onto the high-beam reflector. Obviously in the image I cobbled up below, you can't see the 4th high-beam LED. It's on the back side of my illustration.

I haven't seen an H4 LED conversion bulb designed like this....yet...but when I do, THAT'S what will go in my FJR.

What surprises me as that no one has made one like this. It's coming, though...I'm positive!

Be sure to post a follow-up with night pictures and your observations.

 

[mcatrophy]

Is the wiring up to both filaments on? Almost certainly. The circuit is fused for 25 amps, they couldn't rate the wiring at less than the fuse rating.

Temperature RISE with two filaments on will be approximately twice the temperature rise with one on, that is simple thermodynamics. This holds for the headlamp surround and reflectors, the lens, the bulb connector, holder, the wiring to the holder, and the quartz of the bulb, all of which would worry me long term.

I suspect the life of the bulb will be reduced significantly.

 

[RadioHowie]

Temperature RISE with two filaments on will be approximately twice the temperature rise with one on, that is simple thermodynamics.

Again, this confuses the hell out of me. Let's say with the high-beam on, I measure the temperature of the bulb glass and it's 500 degrees (arbitrary figure, certainly). Then switch it to low-beam and the same measurement is 500 degrees.

Now, electrify both filaments...is the bulb going to be 1000 degrees????