Park Your Ego at the Door

[wheatonFJR]

I guess this makes me an ahole trying to educate someone on something that can save their ass. So be it.
It probably does not help that I look like I just left high school. Nor do I claim to be the sharpest tool in the box. But, I do know what to look for and I do know a thing or two on how to correct it.

I will continue to provide my 2 cents to those that I think can benefit from it. I learned to do it in a subtle way. If met with ego and other shit then I shut up and never ride with that person again most of the time.

In most cases I find that people are willing to listen and do pay attention. If I manage to save at least one from crashing or hurting him self then been an ahole to some is well worth it.

I appreciate your wanting others to ride in a safe manner...and have been on rides (and probably will be on rides) where people have shown little skill 'cuz they just moved over to sport touring from a more sedentary riding style...I have tried to mitigate that by slowing the pace down for that rider....and maybe waving others on ahead to a shared destination.

However, have YOU ever been on the receiving end of said instruction during a ride? How'd that work out?

Also, when you have given instruction during a ride, have you ever had them come back to you later and ask for further instruction or tips? Maybe the true determination of how it was received is if they come back to you later...sometimes people "take" the conversation well so as not to "blowup" and cause a scene. It could be seen as being quite embarrassing to have riding faults pointed out during the ride.

If I am organizing a ride though...it is a different story. I feel responsible for all who are showing up to something I've organized. If I see someone riding in an obviously unsafe manner and/or flagrantly violating the "rules" given in the safety nazi speech before a ride.

I would have no qualms about pulling that person aside and...

1) tell them what I saw

2) why it is a problem

3) warning them they will be booted off the ride if they continue

4) ask them if they "can handle the load"

5) if they are apologetic and they can...we are both good

6) if they are an asshat and give me grief...they are gone

However, I am not a perfect rider and have had people speak to me about my asshat riding decisions...passing with another rider and ending up cutting things "too close"...etc. So I make my fair share of mistakes, too. I try to read up, practice up, and show courtesy around other riders...not taking chances that other people would have to "clean up".

microphone off...

 

[Scythian]

You guys call this a Friday dogpile?! <_<
To much love; not enough hurt feelings and bitter recriminations.

Oh go ride that hot, tip over queen, wrist bustin, pos you call an fjr.



:jester:

back wrenching, monkey-buttin'....

 

[Bounce]

You guys call this a Friday dogpile?! <_<
To much love; not enough hurt feelings and bitter recriminations.

Dogpile or group hug, in California its hard to tell the difference.

it's simple. watch for the condoms to come out. THEN you know it's California.

 

[cougar8000]

However, have YOU ever been on the receiving end of said instruction during a ride? How'd that work out?
Also, when you have given instruction during a ride, have you ever had them come back to you later and ask for further instruction or tips? Maybe the true determination of how it was received is if they come back to you later...sometimes people "take" the conversation well so as not to "blowup" and cause a scene. It could be seen as being quite embarrassing to have riding faults pointed out during the ride.

Yeah, I had. I listened, evaluated what was said and moved on.

Coaching, yeah that is what I call it, can not be done in the manner that Bounce described. Sure you will get a foot in your mouth if you start yapping at someone at the stop light. I do not see a problem if it is done delicately at the rest stop when no one around.

There were those that came back and asked for more. And there are those that tell me that I know shit. I guess the best example that I am doing something right is that for the past few years I have been doing training sessions for friends of mine and just people I ride in one of the groups that I belong too and they keep coming back and asking me to have more then one session during the year.

 

[wheatonFJR]

However, have YOU ever been on the receiving end of said instruction during a ride? How'd that work out?
Also, when you have given instruction during a ride, have you ever had them come back to you later and ask for further instruction or tips? Maybe the true determination of how it was received is if they come back to you later...sometimes people "take" the conversation well so as not to "blowup" and cause a scene. It could be seen as being quite embarrassing to have riding faults pointed out during the ride.

Yeah, I had. I listened, evaluated what was said and moved on.

Coaching, yeah that is what I call it, can not be done in the manner that Bounce described. Sure you will get a foot in your mouth if you start yapping at someone at the stop light. I do not see a problem if it is done delicately at the rest stop when no one around.

There were those that came back and asked for more. And there are those that tell me that I know shit. I guess the best example that I am doing something right is that for the past few years I have been doing training sessions for friends of mine and just people I ride in one of the groups that I belong too and they keep coming back and asking me to have more then one session during the year.

Good deal...yer doin' good then.

 

[James Burleigh]

This has been a great discussion, thanks Dr Rich. On this ride, I rode in different positions within the group. For a while I was with Dr Rich and the first 8 to 10 riders. After lunch I rode with the last 5 out of the parking lot. We were 3 to 5 minutes behind the lead group with no intention of catching up. When we did meet up with the group again it was at the begining of Skaggs at Hwy 1. Leaving there the group took off at a different times according to each persons personal preferance. I think Bluestreak and another rider were infront of me and Silent was taking up the rear. We were the last bike that was 2 up and I have followed Bluestreak before when I was solo. Soon enough the other rider and Bluestreak were out of sight and enjoying the ride. It wasn't until we came out of the forest on the nice part of Skaggs that I saw the two bikes in front of me. At that point with Silent behind me (he has GPS) I didn't need to catch up. But as it turned out we did regroup after about 10 miles. Then in Geyserville we heard Bike Effects on the radio (he had stopped for gas) and waited by the post office for him and (mike). Now we were five bikes heading for Calistoga were we met up with the lead group at a gas station. I think that was the last gas stop for the group and I did not ride back to Fairfield with Dr Rich. Somewhere near Napa the group pulled over the side of the road and Bike Effects asked if anyone wanted to stop for coffee. Dr Rich needed to stick the plan, so Terri and I followed Bike Effects and Mike toward what we thought was a Starbucks. Turned out it was Jeff's house and we went in for a cup of coffee and a visit. We met Jeff's lovely wife and discussed the days events. Terri and I took the Hwy. home and had a late dinner. It was a great ride and I never met an ego the whole day. I have to say this group of riders are very supportive bunch. I am looking forward to the next group ride. Thanks again Dr Rich and all the folks on this ride. NorCal Rocks!

Um, Hycle, did you miss that day in the 5th grade when they taught about paragraph breaks? Well, maybe you were channeling Joyce or Faulkner, or Fang when she writes an e-mail.

This paragraph-break problem needs to be corrected if we're ever going to ride together again. Sorry it has to be that way. But frequent paragraph breaks and safe riding are the twin pillars of effective motorcycling.

JB

[Hmmm, maybe I ought to nominate myself for Best Dadaist Posts instead of ODOT? :glare: ]

 

[Knifemaker]

Intresting thread. My view here is of course , just my view:

I don't like group rides. Most that I have been on however were done well, and no pressure was ever put on anyone not to "ride their ride" The idea of having the "slower" riders near the front worked well.

I don't have a problem with my "Ego"..that was something I may have had issues with when I was 20 years old , but now I look at life diffrently.

I am older and heal slower.

My motorcycle now costs more than the majority of other bikes I did own. So those two things may factor into my daily riding style. But most of it has to do with knowing my own limits...and when and where to push them.

I got my thrills on the racetrack when I was young (and healed faster)... now I ride on the street with the intention/hope of being able to ride again tomorrow.

On occasion I'll push the limits, but only when solo and when conditions are obliging.

Now, when I get talked into going on a group ride, I just ask what our destination is , and then ride there in the exact same manor if I was just going there by myself. I'll pass whoever I think is going too slow and not try to "catch up" with anyone to stay "in a group"

As a matter of fact, If I could make it illeagal for ANYONE ELSE to be on the road while I am, I'd be much happier......

KM

 

[cougar8000]

It just downed on me. If one can not put his ego aside when someone is trying to help him, what makes you think that he is going to put his ego aside when riding? That is all. Good day and good night.

 

[jwilly]

After reading this thread and having been on a group ride today, I'm done with group rides. I mean, I had to sit around and talk freakin motorcycles with these damn people over coffee, lunch and a fresh warm apple pie. Hell at lunch they were trying to work out a group buy with the waitress for the meatloaf and mashed tators special. :huh:

Then we get back on the road after lunch and I'll be damned, 3 of them came up behind me and forced me to ride over the posted speed limit. I'm just not comfortable riding at those speeds with all of the unknowns in this world. :dntknw:

And to top it off, we were riding in a group! And from out of nowhere a bird fly's up and hits the top of my helmet. If I would have been by myself I know this wouldn't have happened. You guys go ahead, I'm now a loaner and will just ride my own ride!

JW

 

[HYCLE]

This has been a great discussion, thanks Dr Rich. On this ride, I rode in different positions within the group. For a while I was with Dr Rich and the first 8 to 10 riders. After lunch I rode with the last 5 out of the parking lot. We were 3 to 5 minutes behind the lead group with no intention of catching up. When we did meet up with the group again it was at the begining of Skaggs at Hwy 1. Leaving there the group took off at a different times according to each persons personal preferance. I think Bluestreak and another rider were infront of me and Silent was taking up the rear. We were the last bike that was 2 up and I have followed Bluestreak before when I was solo. Soon enough the other rider and Bluestreak were out of sight and enjoying the ride. It wasn't until we came out of the forest on the nice part of Skaggs that I saw the two bikes in front of me. At that point with Silent behind me (he has GPS) I didn't need to catch up. But as it turned out we did regroup after about 10 miles. Then in Geyserville we heard Bike Effects on the radio (he had stopped for gas) and waited by the post office for him and (mike). Now we were five bikes heading for Calistoga were we met up with the lead group at a gas station. I think that was the last gas stop for the group and I did not ride back to Fairfield with Dr Rich. Somewhere near Napa the group pulled over the side of the road and Bike Effects asked if anyone wanted to stop for coffee. Dr Rich needed to stick the plan, so Terri and I followed Bike Effects and Mike toward what we thought was a Starbucks. Turned out it was Jeff's house and we went in for a cup of coffee and a visit. We met Jeff's lovely wife and discussed the days events. Terri and I took the Hwy. home and had a late dinner. It was a great ride and I never met an ego the whole day. I have to say this group of riders are very supportive bunch. I am looking forward to the next group ride. Thanks again Dr Rich and all the folks on this ride. NorCal Rocks!

Um, Hycle, did you miss that day in the 5th grade when they taught about paragraph breaks? Well, maybe you were channeling Joyce or Faulkner, or Fang when she writes an e-mail.

This paragraph-break problem needs to be corrected if we're ever going to ride together again. Sorry it has to be that way. But frequent paragraph breaks and safe riding are the twin pillars of effective motorcycling.

JB

[Hmmm, maybe I ought to nominate myself for Best Dadaist Posts instead of ODOT? :glare: ]

Damn, I posted the rough draft and not the final version.

I think its with the last episode of the Creston story.

I know I have it some where.

Yes, the 5th grade was a good time, spent a lot of time in the principals office back then. They ended up putting me in a special program too. It was called HAPP for High Aptitude Potential Program. I got to hang out with the brainy kids and build robots and rockets. Pretty sure I missed that paragraph part. Maybe on our next ride you can explain it to me. I know you went to Berkley and I think some folks there speak English. Or is it still Latin and Greek?

 

[Fred W]

I guess this makes me an ahole trying to educate someone on something that can save their ass. So be it.
It probably does not help that I look like I just left high school. Nor do I claim to be the sharpest tool in the box. But, I do know what to look for and I do know a thing or two on how to correct it.

I will continue to provide my 2 cents to those that I think can benefit from it. I learned to do it in a subtle way. If met with ego and other shit then I shut up and never ride with that person again most of the time.

In most cases I find that people are willing to listen and do pay attention. If I manage to save at least one from crashing or hurting him self then been an ahole to some is well worth it.

then

We do have miscommunicated. My response is not towards what you said. It is more towards what Fred said.

Interesting that you would take my comments to heart, as I was not really talking about your posts so much as the whole scenario as painted in the thread about aggressively instructing new riders (yelling at guys at stop lights) over faulty riding technique.

It sounds to me like you are approaching the situation reasonably enough. Waiting until a discreet time, and feeling the rider out to see if they will take your suggestions the right way. I don't think anyone would have any problem with that. I notice that you are an MSF instructor and that tells me that you (probably) know what you are talking about from a safety perspective. So recommendations from you are probably along the lines of improving the riders ability to stay alive, not just how to get around the next corner faster.

 

[Danno]

Over the weekend when riding with a large group, I found myself questioning my riding style, my speed, my desire to keep up and my judgment about the actual road conditions themselves.
When we started up Skaggs Springs Road on our ride this past Sunday, I intentionally allowed several of the faster riders to take the lead. For many miles I tried to keep up with their pace, but questioned my own riding ability and judgment in trying to maintain their speed.

Several times there was water on the pavement going around tight curves and I found that I backed off the throttle and became very cautious. Over time I kept dropping back until I could no longer see the riders in front of me. This caused me to wonder, was I trying to keep up due to my ego and was I trying to ride above my own ability?

Several of the written responses to the ride, spoke of slowing down, concerns with riding two up, and not riding over one’s abilities. Some responses mentioned a downed rider that we had seen and what may or may not have caused the accident. Other responses celebrated the exhilaration and risk of high-speed riding.

I find myself confused by my own thoughts and the responses of others to the day and the accident. When do ego, conceit, over-confidence and/or recklessness take a back-seat to common sense, a healthy fear and self-preservation when riding a high performance sport touring machine? How do you know if you are pushing too hard and when do you have the common sense to let go of ego and ride within your personal skill level? Do group rides have the unintended effect of causing you to ride at a level that is unsafe for you and others? As the person who organized the ride, should I try to influence those who want to ride excessively fast to slow down for others or is that an unrealistic expectation?

Your thoughts are appreciated…… Rich

I regularly ride with a guy who likes to go much slower than I would. He is one of my favorite friends to ride with because he is who he is and I respect that. Our rides are not about who has the best bike, who's is faster, it's about being out on the road. If I want to ride fast, then I can do it with faster riders or by myself.

Danno

 

[cougar8000]

Fred, this is what struck the nail.

I can see if the guy is creating risk to some of the others, but if it's just riding skills, why not just STFU and mind your own business?

Not that I took is personally. What I think this post might do or have done already is to reassure someone that they should not bother.

You mention my certification and saying that because I have it it validates talking to someone. I agree with you to a point. Blind should not lead blind on a world tour. But some one with experience who sees an obvious mistakes, should be vocal about it. People should not feel bad trying to improve or help another.

I tell my students:"You rather loose the friend and keep him alive, then know that you could have saved him but now you are at his funeral." Granted I say it during impairment section, but it is still valid even in this case.

Is it spring yet?

 

[Fred W]

Is it spring yet?

Not even close. Got another 1/2 foot of the evil white stuff here on Friday night.

 

[Cdogman]

I'm not saying that a rapid pace is wrong, but I've heard some riders talk about pushing their skills to the limit and I would argue that public roads are not the place to do that.

I went down from this.... I was out today before the storm hit and I have indeed learned a lesson... I find I am riding slower. I have been humbled and walked away without a scratch after a 150 foot slide and a 55mph getoff, two up in November... I bet I only get one of those...

I am also scheduled for a track day in spring where i shalll be at 9.5/10nths

The street is not the place... A brisk pace on the street is not what I am talking a bout. I live amongst some of the tastiest twisties on gods green earth.....I will brisk pace them more.... 7/10ths

When I get nervous is when I am at 10.00000001/10ths It is a warning I did not heed once and I got as lucky as a guy can get going down at 55mph with my wife on board... As I said.. I bet I only get one of those and I used it up

BTW Wife....... Not a scratch either.. I know I dont have to say we were 100% ATGATT

If I am with a group that has anything to say about my not keeping up I am riding witht the wrong people... Starting with their attitude, not their skill

YMMV

 

[exskibum]

If I am with a group that has anything to say about my not keeping up I am riding witht the wrong people... Starting with their attitude, not their skill

[SIZE=14pt]Gunny[/SIZE] +10

 

[Berde]

Sneaky posums, afraid dogs, acrobatic birds, stupid truck with trailer over the lines in a tight turn, ice prone wet shaddy downhill curves at 37 deg, gravel on the road, house fire and the expected commotion of Fire and Resc personnel and curious bystanders, all that happened in front of me within a few hours on yesterday's lovely ride. Thanks God NormK and I were doing our pace and not trying to impress anyone. Funny, but when you catch up at an intersection or rest stop, usually the ones firts to arrive are already rested and anxious to continue on with the ride, so you end up having no time for a needed rest. For all the vistas, food, and camaraderie, the ride was well worth it. Kudos to the Dr. for the onpoint thread !!!

 

[Ric in Sac]

I think this thread misses the mark.

Personally, I learned there is a good benefit to group rides, especially when a rider is new to the FJR platform. This goes beyond the obvious fellowship.

My personal skill level increased exponentially simply by following riders like Highlander. His technique is impeccable, he has amazing smoothness and he hits the corners with the perfect arc and lean never having to make mid-corner adjustments. I loved to ride behind him and spent much of the time grinning in amazement.

After making lots of observations, followed by thinking and experimentation of my own, I learned how Highlander nails the corners with such amazing consistency. Obviously, experience is an important factor. But, there is ONE SECRET -- looking far ahead of the bike to the end of the curve and seeing the arc in your mind. Now, I could have read this in a book. Sure. But you have to go out, see it, and then DO IT.

I guarantee you that 90% of the motorcyclists out there do NOT look beyond the next 50' off the nose of their bikes. This is a "newbie" bad habit and hard to break.

So, did I push my personal "comfort" envelope a little bit riding in group rides? Yep. But if you WANT to get better, you have to. You do it in increments. My skills have improved and so has my ability to ride SAFELY.

Taking Exskibum's example with respect to skiing -- ski students are taught by playing follow-the-leader with the instructor to imitate the weight shifts, hip shifts, etc., that carve good turns. That is how Exskibum learned to ski and that is how I learned to ski. Why is motorcycling any different?

We are blessed to have some very skillful riders in Northern California. Those riders with less experience or new to the platform, check your ego at the door and latch on to a "mentor". You will be glad you did. The mentors? They will share graciously and keep an eye in their mirror for you.

Group riding is not just about fellowship -- it is about mentorship in the skills of riding. We should embrace it, not dump on it.

 

[madmike2]

One problem I see in this entire discussion is that those who are riding over their skill/attention/mental level (perhaps for that day) are not aware of it. No amount of "counsel" is going to change that.

I've been off by bike for some time. First there was the 5 months of physical recovery and now the 3+ weeks of warranty repair. (I "should" have it back next week or by the weekend.)

It is my choice to begin with parking lot drills (a la' MSF and Streetmasters Workshop), then expand my lessons to twisty foothill roads I've ridden before. I've already PM'd 2 local forum members I trust and respect (Rich and Brad) to ride along with me. I KNOW I need their coaching and encouragement (rather than challenges to "speed up") to instill the good habits, muscle memory and confidence that has faded. I NEED to follow riders who consistently and habitually pick good lines through corners to improve my eye-hand & muscular coordination and control without an emotional or testosterone charged atmosphere.

I wish, hope and pray that each of you are fortunate enough to have this quality of co-rider and friend to learn and hone your riding habits, then challenge your preconceptions about your own abilities and the open-mindedness to apply it.

 

[Dr. Rich]

I have read almost 100 responses to this thread.

My original question should not be considered an indictment of anyone’s riding style or capabilities. I have severely questioned my abilities and my motivations when riding with a group. I have seen four riders go down (two FJR’s) on group rides that I participated in this past year. Have I done things that I normally wouldn’t do when with a group…?

The honest answer is an unequivocal yes!

Have I exceeded the speed limit by an excessive amount?… Yes

Have I crossed double yellow lines to keep up with others?…Yes

Have I ridden at a speed that was unsafe for the road conditions given my abilities?…Yes

Am I (58) years old and still think I can ride like I did back when I was 30?…. Maybe

Have I scared myself recently by riding too fast?… Yes.

Was I riding too fast because I was with a group, trying to keep up?… I think so

Would I have ridden that fast if I was alone?… I don’t think so.

The set of circumstances that led to this thread and led me to question myself were…I was coming over the bridge at the fast part of Skaggs Springs Road. There were twenty or so bikes assembled on the bridge with many riders and pillions standing around. As I was in about mid span going down hill on the bridge and a knee dragger made a hard right turn coming onto the bridge at such an incredible speed my eyes went towards him to see if he was going to come over the line and hit me. When I took my eyes off my line for that split second, I found I was drifting to the right. As I neared the end of the bridge I had drifted to the right and was approaching the guardrail going into a left hand turn. I didn’t hit the guardrail but I did get into the sand and pebbles just in front of it. I don’t know why I didn’t crash but I didn’t. I know I created the conditions that would have caused the crash by my not paying attention to my line and carrying too much speed into the turn. Did I scare myself?… You bet I did.

Why was I going so fast????

That was my question and the introspection that followed.

I too have followed Dave (Highlander) when he was two up and been amazed at his ability to ride with a confidence I will never enjoy. I followed Ric (Ric from Sac) when he was two up on a ride one day and was amazed at how fluid he was. When we arrived at the destination was I drained from trying to keep up?…Yes… Was the guy behind me drained?… Yes, because we talked about it. Had I ridden within my limits… Probably not.

I want to be a better rider. I want to carve the roads up like my son and some of you can. The reality is I don’t have the muscle tone, reaction time, gross motor or fine motor skills I once did. I need to slow down and be content to watch the better riders push ahead faster and appreciate their skills. When I was in college, I wanted to be a running back. I didn’t have the speed or moves (I had the heart and desire). The old coach told me that I would make a really good defensive end. I played defensive end and did pretty well. I need to step back and resume my position as a big old defensive end and let you young agile running backs take the pitch outs and fly towards the goal line. I will root for you but from now on I will be bringing up the rear. Rich