Shorai battery

[NightShine]

And now from the nice people at Shorai: https://blog.shoraipower.com/socialpics/Techtipfeb.pdf ...

In anticipation of the spring weather and the start of the riding season for many motorcycle enthusiasts, we have a few battery suggestions. If it has been a few weeks or more since the bike was last ridden it is recommended to connect a battery charger to maintain the proper voltage level. The recommended charging interval varies greatly for each vehicle, and depends greatly on the parasitic key off drawlevel. We find that a typical vehicle will draw less than 3mA and can sit for about a month before reaching the recommended recharge voltage point of 13.1V. For vehicles with an alarm, ABS, clock or other electrical devices that draw power from the battery while the key is off, it would be best to disconnect the negative cable during extended non-riding periods. The Shorai battery has a very slow self-discharge rate as long as it is disconnected from the vehicle, and can sit for up to a year before needing a charge.

For the longest battery life it is recommended to use the Shorai BMS01 charger or a 3 stage battery charger to store the battery between 13.2-13.3V. The Shorai BMS01 has a “store” button which can be used to maintain the battery at ~13.3 while the bike sits unused, and then the “charge” button can be pressed shortly before riding the bike to fully charge the battery. Do not use chargers with automatic desulfation or a deep cycle conditioning mode.

If the Shorai battery indicates a resting voltage below 12.86V, it has been over-discharged and will need to be fully recharged to ~14.4V before starting the bike. Note, it may take a few charge/use cycles for the battery to reach full capacity and regain normal starting performance. For typical bikes being started in normal temperatures the starting performance will be good with an initial resting voltage of 13.1V or higher - but in colder weather a fully charged battery is recommended. Cranking performance of lithium batteries will improve as the cells warm. If the bike will not crank fast enough to start in cold weather, try again after a short key off resting period for improved cranking performance. In extreme cold weather conditions it may take several starting attempts for the cells to reach the desired operating temperature.

We hope this information helps you to a quick start in the 2013 riding season.

 

[Bustanut joker]

As I see it, Gary has posted up enough evidence of the Shorai's weak points that anyone who buys one and is disappointed should be kicked in the nutz..

 

[garyahouse]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the grip warmer pad idea might work pretty well. However, this late in the season, I'm reluctant to fork out 27 bucks. In 2-3 weeks, our chances for over night cold weather is just about over. I'm wondering if slapping a trickle charger on it would accomplish the same thing?? However, that obviously wouldn't work if the bike was out somewhere overnight where there was no 110 volt available. I know I don't want to go through the "4-6 starting attempt" ritual for ever. Before you guys worry yourselves to death about my poor starter, keep in mind I only went through this process like 5 times all together. But I think I've got a pretty good indication of what this battery is gonna do, and at what temperature. I'm gonna try this once more. It's gonna get pretty cold tonight, so I'm gonna put the FJR outside for the night. In the morning, I'm gonna turn on the lights for about a half hour while I'm getting ready for work. I'd like to see if a low level power drain for a longer period of time will accomplish what I want.

Temp's 41 right now and going down. Superbowl's over, time for night-night. We'll see what happens.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Still Gary.. to spend almost double for a lighter battery and then toss another 27 bucks at an experiment that might work?. For a miniscule savings in weight is all?

Unless you live in say.. Guatemala or points south..The Shorai don't seem such a good idea

 

[garyahouse]

Unless you live in say.. Guatemala or points south..The Shorai don't seem such a good idea

Now's there's an idea I hadn't thought of. Might even be cheaper than all the bucks I'm spending here...

 

[Bustanut joker]

Unless you live in say.. Guatemala or points south..The Shorai don't seem such a good idea

Now's there's an idea I hadn't thought of. Might even be cheaper than all the bucks I'm spending here...

Brazil is nice this time of year I hear..

 

[odot]

Amsoil makes the best batteries.

 

[BikerGeek99]

Dumb question...

We keep talking about "warming up" the battery.

Is this a warming up in the temperature sense, or some kind of warming up in the chemical sense?

Just curious and, no, I'm not putting my Shorai back in my FJR.

 

[mcatrophy]

Dumb question...We keep talking about "warming up" the battery.Is this a warming up in the temperature sense, or some kind of warming up in the chemical sense?Just curious and, no, I'm not putting my Shorai back in my FJR.

Temperature.

 

[garyahouse]

Shorai describes it as "waking up" the battery. However, we know that using or charging a lithium battery generates heat. Ever notice what the cell phone feels like when ya been talkin' on it awhile? My best guess that this is a physical heat.

This morning's experiment

I went out this morning and it was a crispy 34 degrees. I turned on the switch to activate the voltmeter. It showed 12.8 volts. I turned on the key.and watched it drop to 12.5 volts. I came back out about 35 minutes later, stowed my lunch in the saddlebag and began my "starting ritual."

First attempt: Voltage was 12.4 at the onset with the key on: I hit starter button. Engine turned over perhaps 3 times, turning slower each revolution. Voltage dropped to middle 8's or so.I let go of the key before the starter slowed too much. For what it's worth, for this entire thread, I've never held the starter button down until the starter STOPS turning.

Second attempt: about 20 seconds later after the voltage rebounded to about 11.8. Engine turned over a couple times, voltage dropped to the middle 8's.

Third attempt (and so on): Battery got a little stronger, but never got past 12.5 volts at the all important moment before hitting the button. Under these circumstances, the Shorai has failed this morning.

Hooked up the charger @ 2 amps for 4-5 minutes.

Voltage on the bike's voltage meter increased to 12.9, and the bike started right up first try.

Lesson learned: Low amperage voltage drain over a longer period of time hurts more than it helps. The battery didn't wake up enough to start the bike.

-- a couple interesting thoughts: my FJR has never flooded. Once the voltage and/or starting RPMs reach a certain point, it just starts... every time. I can hear it as it cranks. It seems that it must be cranking at a certain minimum rpm to start. There is absolutely no variation with this. I've learned by trial and error that any efforts to start the bike when the starter is unable to generate sufficient RPMs... doesn't work.

-- there's never been a sputter and stall. The engine has never once sputtered, or "almost" started. Ya'd think that maybe once in a while one spark plug would fire, but the others wouldn't, and it would like, sputter a little, but not start. Without fail, once any spark plug goes off, it lights that engine, first time, every time. And it simply will not happen below a certain starting rpm. Of course I can't measure this rpm, I can only hear it, and tell you approximately what voltage I noted before pushing the button.

-- when the engine "decides" to start, it does so in a DECISIVE manner. The engine has never done any less than immediately jump to its idle at it's normal 2200 RPMs upon starting. It reminds me a little of my old 1982 Oldsmobile diesel. That engine started with authority.

Which leads me to a question: does the FJR's computer do this? Is there a certain minimum required starting voltage, or starting rpm, that the computer requires before sending the signal to the ignition to fire?

 

[mcatrophy]

Lesson learned: Low amperage voltage drain over a longer period of time hurts more than it helps. The battery didn't wake up enough to start the bike.

Sounds like the residual current of parking lights and ECU isn't sufficient to warm the battery. Headlights or similar are needed, which the FJR refuses to give you.

Only other built-in possibility would be to put the key in the "Park" position (if yours has this).

(click on image for larger view)



and put the hazard flashers on. That's a (pulsating) 84W plus 25-ish for the parking lights, but no ignition.

[edit] And you can remove the key, so it's secure.[/edit]

Or, ignition and flashers. (Coming from way back, I'm always reluctant to leave the ignition on without the engine running. This would invariably lead to the ignition coil cooking. Should be no problem with a modern system.)

 

[garyahouse]

Another attempt

I parked the FJR ouside, where it was 37 bone chilling degrees this morning. Don't know how you northern boys do this. At least it'll be 70 on the way home this afternoon. Anyway, I turned on the voltage meter. It showed 13.7. I turned on the ignition. The voltage dropped to 12.8. Time to begin.

First attempt: Initial voltage 12.8, engine turned over reasonably well, but not fast enough to start. Leave key on, wait 20 seconds for voltage to rebound back up to 12.8 and...

Second attempt: Same results as above, but engine turned over slightly faster. Wait 20 seconds or so for voltage to rebound... this time up to 12.9 volts

Third attempt: engine started after about 2 seconds of cranking.

I did learn something that recently that I forgot to post. Attempting to start the bike after waiting just a few seconds, rather than the 20-30 seconds (between each attempt) is a bad idea. The speed that the engine turns over is closely related to the voltage that my voltmeter measures at the battery... at the beginning of each start attempt. The Shorai "rebounds" after each start attempt... a certain amount, but it takes a little time. If I attempt to start it in less time than it takes the voltage to rebound, it simply turns over slower.

 

[ionbeam]

...it'll be 70 on the way home this afternoon...The speed that the engine turns over is closely related to the voltage that my voltmeter measures at the battery...

Don't make me hate you.

Voltage = cranking speed Current = cranking strength When a Shorai battery gets cold the internal resistance goes up which limits current and that causes the voltage to drop. This is a chemistry thing, not to be confused with the behavior of metal and temperature. Any company making a LiFePO4 battery will have similar constraints. So far none of the LiFe battery companies have solved the chemical 'doping' which will need to be added to the existing chemistry to overcome the cold issue.

 

[LAF]

After sitting almost a month in the Cycle Shell the MotoBat showed 12.10 on the Datel. Pushed the start button and vroom. Gotta love it.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Maybe they should dope it up with morphine?

It wouldn't care about the cold then.

 

[Phugedaboudet]

went to the Shorai headquarters with the dead battery, they gave me a refurb with no problems-even though it was out of warranty for quite a few months. their tech guys say there's yet another change in the formula, that the cells now hold around 2v higher when temps are in the low 30's.

Since my tires, brake pads, new steering lock and TPMS haven't arrived yet, I have yet to test it out.

 

[SkooterG]

their tech guys say there's yet another change in the formula, that the cells now hold around 2v higher when temps are in the low 30's.

Interesting. Marketing BS or possible improvement? Hmmm.....

 

[garyahouse]

their tech guys say there's yet another change in the formula, that the cells now hold around 2v higher when temps are in the low 30's.

Interesting. Marketing BS or possible improvement? Hmmm.....

Phug-

You said, "Tech guys said..." Did you contact them by phone or by email? What exactly did they say? What's this NEW formula all about? How new are we talking? The battery I received came in early December. It's been two months now. I never heard anything about a new formula.

Gary

 

[Bustanut joker]

their tech guys say there's yet another change in the formula, that the cells now hold around 2v higher when temps are in the low 30's.

Interesting. Marketing BS or possible improvement? Hmmm.....

Coke tried this several years ago... Lets hope Shorai has better luck.

 

[wheatonFJR]

their tech guys say there's yet another change in the formula, that the cells now hold around 2v higher when temps are in the low 30's.

Interesting. Marketing BS or possible improvement? Hmmm.....

...so they admit to repeatedly selling Beta versions of a product to the public and calling them good?

HA!

Let's see, I wonder if they would let structural engineers charge for beta versions of their product?

...oops, I guess some of us did awhile ago...