2016 FJR1300A Check Engine Light On

[NTXFJR]

There does seem to be some issues with key switch contacts. Couple that with updated firmware that is less tolerant of glitches like that and voila. The service manager at my dealer demonstrated the main relay double pulse during slow key on thing. We replicated it on my bike and were able to make the cel come back on. In this case, we were able to make it come back on without trying to start the bike.

I'd like to think that there's an applications engineer somewhere in corporate Yamaha that's getting his butt chewed out for releasing this firmware. Hopefully the second time will be a charm.

 

[BakerBoy]

There does seem to be some issues with key switch contacts. Couple that with updated firmware that is less tolerant of glitches like that and voila. The service manager at my dealer demonstrated the main relay double pulse during slow key on thing. We replicated it on my bike and were able to make the cel come back on. In this case, we were able to make it come back on without trying to start the bike.I'd like to think that there's an applications engineer somewhere in corporate Yamaha that's getting his butt chewed out for releasing this firmware. Hopefully the second time will be a charm.

And I hope that said applications engineer is dishing it back!

But as illustrated well with Dilbert cartoons, there's only so much engineers are allowed to say back to management.
I'm also thinking it likely that there were several applications engineers writing the code and all knew of the issue, and further that they discovered it and made the issue known to their managers before the bike shipped--but we'll likely never know.

Often projects assigned to engineers are saddled with Company demands about schedule, or with hardware/cost limitations, or with unreasonable goals (like "here's the number of rungs [logic steps] we've budgeted for you to use"), here's the CPU and RAM you get to use (limited as someone in Supply Chain [Purchasing] who committed to a certain ECU board design with no idea that the hardware is insufficient for the program), or other non-sensical restriction where $2 was saved. Happens all the time, sadly.

It will be interesting to see how Yamaha responds--whether it acknowledges it and tries to fix the problem. I wonder if a new ECU is required or whether they can adjust all the code that has to fit into it's [presumably] limited space, if the part number for the 2017 ECU will change (without fixing the 2016s), if the part number for the key switch changes for the 2017, or if the 2017 remains unchanged and the CEL faults continue the same as for the 2016s.

 

[rPGoatBoy]

If I had to guess I'd say the cheapest fix for Yamaha would be to redesign the ignition switch and do recall campaign, unless they can change the firmware on the ECU, which would be a new development for FJRs.

 

[Geezer]

The issue would not be nearly as bad if they left in the ability for the owner to clear the codes. I wonder if the firmware could be flashed. I doubt Yamaha will recall either the switch or ECU for this unless they are forced to do it. More likely it will be a reactive approach in the form of a service bulletin notifying the tech's how to fix the problem after a customer complains.

 

[ionbeam]

I think that some of y'all have funny ideas about how engineering (mechanical, electrical, software), quality control and manufacturing works.

Edit: Geezer is most likely correct. I expect that the OBD II compliant '16 will have re-flash capability that previous years did not have.

 

[NTXFJR]

I think BakerBoy is spot on. Management that has no clue on technical issues but yet is in the position to impose scheduling or budget demands on the engineers under them can be a recipe for miserable working conditions, and perhaps less than desirable results.

 

[ionbeam]

NTXFJR, I'm sorry for whatever work experience you have had that leads you to such a ****** outlook. It's sure not like that everyplace and I'd be looking for a new management staff if my company started to operated like that. Bitter businesses do not make better products.

 

[Constant Mesh]

Yamaha is first and foremost a marketing company in the recreation industry.

They're into bells and whistles they can sell.

As we know their product debugging is not always as good. Fortunately they usually get the big things right.

 

[Geezer]

I realize that we have gotten off on a tangent from the check engine light problem to how an engineering department is managed, but it is related as a potential root cause.

Any engineer or engineering manager who intentionally allows a known bug to go into production is going to be held responsible when the bug surfaces in the field. If a manager is reprimanded, it is very unlikely that the people who work under his management will be aware of it unless he tells them.

One of the interesting things I learned about programming over the years, including firmware, is that a certain number of errors are expected. Most are tested out, but the expectation is that some will escape to the end product. There is no expectation for 100 percent error free code.

 

[AdamK]

If the 2016 ECUs are flashable I would think a programming fix would be cheaper than physically replacing the ignition switches via a recall. The question is can they overcome a physical switch issue in the programming.

Being a structural engineer and the Director of IT at my firm I also know expecting 100% perfection during and engineering project is not a realistic. Sure you want your product to be perfect, but we're talking about a fairly complex machine in it's first year after some major changes. I believe OBDII compliance on motorcycles is still a couple of years from being required. What we're seeing is Yamaha's first attempts at meeting these requirements. One of the mechanics I spoke with was disappointed that Yamaha hadn't released some of the new diagnostic equipment or trained the mechanics in the field before shipping the new bikes. He also said Yamaha also pulled the ability to access the codes from the dash so the end user could only access the ECU via a more tightly controlled OBDII set of commands as dictated by the upcoming standards. The regulating bodies don't want end users being able to tweak settings, like fuel trims, which could effect emission standards.

If this issue is caused by a slow key turn or not turning the key completely on I could see that being missed during the review process. Sure you want to test every conceivable chain of events, but turning the key <almost> ON, or turning it slowly over 5 seconds??

 

[Niehart]

And this not just a FJR issue, any of the 16's that have this same setup are having this issue.

 

[AdamK]

And this not just a FJR issue, any of the 16's that have this same setup are having this issue.

The cable I bought from Orient Express says it's for the "Yamaha FJR 1300 2016/ XSR 900 2016". I'm not sure how many 2016 bikes other than these two have the new OBDII capability?? I also found a similar discussion online regarding <some> Yamaha outboard boat engines.

 

[NTXFJR]

This one got corrupted while editing, please delete.

 

[NTXFJR]

NTXFJR, I'm sorry for whatever work experience you have had that leads you to such a ****** outlook. It's sure not like that everyplace and I'd be looking for a new management staff if my company started to operated like that. Bitter businesses do not make better products.

No doubt, and thank you for that comment. Companies that succeed have to be doing something right, or at least more things right than wrong.

But I have to agree with what BakerBoy said, it's not always fair to blame the engineers, and I'm sorry if my ****** outlook spilled over into some of the comments. I expect people to do their jobs competently and I hold a dim view when they don't. It's prolly part of my ocd bent, but is it such a hard thing to ask that people do their jobs? I could go on about some of my reasons for said outlook as I've been well trained through the school of hard knocks, from dealing directly with degreed so called engineers to dealing with technically clueless management, in a variety of settings. But that may not be the most productive thing for the purposes of this thread.

Back on track: I envision Yamaha as a giant corporation with a fair bit of bloated bureaucracy in it's ranks. This opinion has grown out of things like what I saw as a lack of customer support when I called in on this cel issue, and then from comments I heard from the service tech that actually reset the cel at the dealership. He has to deal with it as well. Bureaucracy may be necessary in large organizations and not always be a bad thing in a well run environment. But it seemingly can also be an unwieldy juggernaut as well.

Apparently this OBDII update was forced upon Yamaha, and perhaps other manufacturers as well, via a lawsuit to get rid of proprietary firmware and go with an open technology footprint that gives all repair centers equal access for service.

All I was really trying to say that this cel issue looks to me like a firmware update that for whatever reason was not thoroughly debugged before release, period. Whether it's an engineering snafu, or corporate (mis)management is merely speculation on my part. All I know is that someone somewhere dropped the ball.

And I have every reason to believe that mother ship will correct this cel issue, they have a very good track record for it.

 

[AdamK]

I was able to reproduce the "turn the key slowly" and generate a CEL.

 

[NTXFJR]

I was able to reproduce the "turn the key slowly" and generate a CEL.

So both types of cel events, slow key on, and partial key on while trying to start, generate the P1601 code?

 

[AdamK]

I was able to reproduce the "turn the key slowly" and generate a CEL.

So both types of cel events, slow key on, and partial key on while trying to start, generate the P1601 code?

Yes

 

[NTXFJR]

I was able to reproduce the "turn the key slowly" and generate a CEL.

So both types of cel events, slow key on, and partial key on while trying to start, generate the P1601 code?

Yes

Switch contacts as they are coupled with less tolerant firmware, hmmm......

 

[El Toro Joe]

I was able to reproduce the "turn the key slowly" and generate a CEL.

So both types of cel events, slow key on, and partial key on while trying to start, generate the P1601 code?

Yes

So maybe the fix would be...just don't do that. My CEL came on at 1500 miles and was reset at around 3500 miles. It now has 7300 miles, and the CEL has not come back on...yet.

 

[NTXFJR]

Same here, I've got around 8500 miles on mine now, or about 4500 since the last cel and life is still good. I don't normally kill my bike by putting the side stand down while still in gear but I did it the other day not thinking and It didn't set the cel