KrZy8 Gen2 - Charging Circuit

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Spectacular! I think the 'fix' will be confirmed multiple times by various peeps. Good on yah for getting 8 gauge wire in the connector.. Any pix?
Finally stopped raining so I got it out and ran till the fans came on. At first start it was 14.2 at high idle, then settled down to 14.0 at idle. When the fans came on it was 13.6 at idle,(1100 RPMS) and 13.9 at 2500 RPMS, . Before the fix it was 12.9 at idle with the fans and no improvement with higher RPMs.

No pics of the connector, sorry. But I used 10 gauge automotive connectors and the 8 ga. went in, just barely and with force. I soldered them. I had to cut a little window in them for the plastic lock tab and then they were crooked so the plastic plug body needed to be filed some and the mouth of the female connector had to be opened a little at the end so the bayonet would engage. Even at that it was a firm push to get them seated. Which is actually a good thing because the factory connectors were a very light fit on the bayonet. Certainly not worthy of that kind of power in my opinion which you actually proved by the voltage increase you got using the automotive connectors.

My bike slowly deteriorated over six years. I suspect that most Gen II's have this problem, it just hasn't gotten bad enough yet. Funny thing is, you can run all the ohmage (is that a word?) and voltage tests like you and I did, and they all show good. You need to have a load to see the deterioration.

I love this bike, but let's be honest, the wiring on the Gen II's is a nightmare.
Glad your setup worked to fix Yamaha's design screw up.

One thing I'm a little puzzled about though is it possible that running the ground through the frame as you did could be in anyway better? If I remember correctly the battery is grounded to the engine block which in grounded to the frame incidentally via the various mounting bolts.

Actually,I'm also curious as to why you grounded the OEM R/R -ve wire? What is the logic there vs. leaving it (the whole OEM plug) taped up and untouched?

 
My . 02JK, grounding directly back to source , battery, always best!

Grounding oem harness makes sense to me? Providing as many low resistance paths as possible back to battery = good?

iPad posted have more to say ... Later

 
Spectacular! I think the 'fix' will be confirmed multiple times by various peeps. Good on yah for getting 8 gauge wire in the connector.. Any pix?
Finally stopped raining so I got it out and ran till the fans came on. At first start it was 14.2 at high idle, then settled down to 14.0 at idle. When the fans came on it was 13.6 at idle,(1100 RPMS) and 13.9 at 2500 RPMS, . Before the fix it was 12.9 at idle with the fans and no improvement with higher RPMs.

No pics of the connector, sorry. But I used 10 gauge automotive connectors and the 8 ga. went in, just barely and with force. I soldered them. I had to cut a little window in them for the plastic lock tab and then they were crooked so the plastic plug body needed to be filed some and the mouth of the female connector had to be opened a little at the end so the bayonet would engage. Even at that it was a firm push to get them seated. Which is actually a good thing because the factory connectors were a very light fit on the bayonet. Certainly not worthy of that kind of power in my opinion which you actually proved by the voltage increase you got using the automotive connectors.

My bike slowly deteriorated over six years. I suspect that most Gen II's have this problem, it just hasn't gotten bad enough yet. Funny thing is, you can run all the ohmage (is that a word?) and voltage tests like you and I did, and they all show good. You need to have a load to see the deterioration.

I love this bike, but let's be honest, the wiring on the Gen II's is a nightmare.
Glad your setup worked to fix Yamaha's design screw up.

One thing I'm a little puzzled about though is it possible that running the ground through the frame as you did could be in anyway better? If I remember correctly the battery is grounded to the engine block which in grounded to the frame incidentally via the various mounting bolts.

Actually,I'm also curious as to why you grounded the OEM R/R -ve wire? What is the logic there vs. leaving it (the whole OEM plug) taped up and untouched?
I would love to give you some technical explanation as to why it is a good idea to re-ground the original ground wire from the RR. But truth is I just guessed it was a good idea. I just thought that if there are any system grounds on that wire on its path to the battery then grounding both ends would be better. But I didn't look at the prints to see if that is true. Prints make my head hurt. LOL

As far as running the new RR ground to frame rather than direct back to the battery I figured the frame and engine can carry more current than an 8 ga. wire, plus, it was much easier to run a single wire to the battery as it alone was pretty fat with all the insulation I had on it. I used 8 ft. of wire, running forward on the left side of the frame, under the heat shield along the engine and across the radiator area and into the bottom of the battery area.

Concerning the use of a single circuit breaker, I feel they do little good unless you install one at each end close to each power source. What good is 50% protection? Plus they add 2 more potential failure points along with two more resistance points. I would rather roll the dice with a super insulated wire. But that is just me.

 
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One point that should be considered for all of these discussions is that the battery is NOT really the source for powering anything except the starter motor (or when the engine isn't running). The Alternator is the actual source, but it has a three phase floating output (no grounds). Ground reference is not introduced in the circuit until the Rectifier, where the negative side of the bridge rectifier is grounded. So technically, for high power applications where you are unconcerned with any rectifier noise (ripple) you'd want to get your ground nearest to the source, and that would be at the Regulator Rectifier (RR).

But, you don't really want that for low power consuming sensitive electronic accessories. The battery acts like a giant shunt capacitor (low pass filter) and that is why you'd want to take your accessories' operating voltage from across the battery terminals; i.e. because that will be the voltage point with the least noise.

In terms of fusing the wire run between the RR and the battery, the RR is still the main source and the battery is actually load (when recharging) and then a filter. Although things may be wired to the battery it is not the source except when the output from the alternator is lower than the charge on the battery. Putting a fuse closest to the R/R in that series circuit would protect the alternator and RR from burning up in the event of a short circuit anywhere downstream of it. But the battery would still smoke the wire. If the stock harness has no fuse or circuit breaker in that run between RR and Battery, I'd probably just physically protect the wires well (preventing shorts) and do the same.

The weak point (higher resistance) in this whole thing is unlikely to be the wire itself unless it is degrading over time. Did anyone try replacing the stock wire with a "jumper" of the same gauge? :unsure: The offending resistance is more likely to be in all of the connectors. You have connectors from the 3 phase generator, in and out of the R/R, and at the battery end, as well as any connections in ground path continuity from R/R to battery. Adding in a fuse or circuit breaker adds two more connections that can add resistance.

The Honda VFR800 charging systems had lots of issues in this charging circuit too. Some of the effective "fixes" involved eliminating as many connectors as possible. These quick disconnect points are really not important except for when you need to replace one of the components. For the number of times we need to replace an alternator stator or R/R we could just do straight hi-pressure butt splices, and even solder fill the splice if desired, and get rid of several weak connection points. The only downside is that when you did have a component failure you'd have to cut them out and re-splice.

 
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I like the analogy of the battery as a (big honkin) capacitor. Just out of curiosity, has anyone with this low voltage issue actually experienced discharge of the battery to the point where it was an issue? I don't have a Datel on-board DVM and I have never measured the running voltage on my charging system. Always assumed that since I never had starting issues and the battery has never given me any problems that I can live in ignorant bliss. Dammit, now I'll have to go out and measure the damn thing! Still on the original battery - 2007 with 75,000 miles. By the way, I haven't been running any "extras" on the bike but maybe I'll have to pay a little closer attention with the HID auxillary lights and the heatet gear I am installing (when I get around to it).

 
I like the analogy of the battery as a (big honkin) capacitor. Just out of curiosity, has anyone with this low voltage issue actually experienced discharge of the battery to the point where it was an issue? I don't have a Datel on-board DVM and I have never measured the running voltage on my charging system. Always assumed that since I never had starting issues and the battery has never given me any problems that I can live in ignorant bliss. Dammit, now I'll have to go out and measure the damn thing! Still on the original battery - 2007 with 75,000 miles. By the way, I haven't been running any "extras" on the bike but maybe I'll have to pay a little closer attention with the HID auxillary lights and the heatet gear I am installing (when I get around to it).
Yes, lots of people have had BDS, to the point where the bike doesn't have enough juice in it to start the bike. Which is the whole point of having a panel Battery Volt meter in the dash. But generally BDS only happens if they are running too many high power consuming accessories, such as aux lights and heated gear. Little stuff like GPSes, intercoms, etc you'll never have a problem.

PS - It's not an analogy. It actually is one. Albeit a chemical storage of voltage vs electrostatic.

 
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One point that should be considered for all of these discussions is that the battery is NOT really the source for powering anything except the starter motor (or when the engine isn't running). The Alternator is the actual source, but it has a three phase floating output (no grounds). Ground reference is not introduced in the circuit until the Rectifier, where the negative side of the bridge rectifier is grounded. So technically, for high power applications where you are unconcerned with any rectifier noise (ripple) you'd want to get your ground nearest to the source, and that would be at the Regulator Rectifier (RR).

But, you don't really want that for low power consuming sensitive electronic accessories. The battery acts like a giant shunt capacitor (low pass filter) and that is why you'd want to take your accessories' operating voltage from across the battery terminals; i.e. because that will be the voltage point with the least noise.

In terms of fusing the wire run between the RR and the battery, the RR is still the main source and the battery is actually load (when recharging) and then a filter. Although things may be wired to the battery it is not the source except when the output from the alternator is lower than the charge on the battery. Putting a fuse closest to the R/R in that series circuit would protect the alternator and RR from burning up in the event of a short circuit anywhere downstream of it. But the battery would still smoke the wire. If the stock harness has no fuse or circuit breaker in that run between RR and Battery, I'd probably just physically protect the wires well (preventing shorts) and do the same.

The weak point (higher resistance) in this whole thing is unlikely to be the wire itself unless it is degrading over time. Did anyone try replacing the stock wire with a "jumper" of the same gauge? :unsure: The offending resistance is more likely to be in all of the connectors. You have connectors from the 3 phase generator, in and out of the R/R, and at the battery end, as well as any connections in ground path continuity from R/R to battery. Adding in a fuse or circuit breaker adds two more connections that can add resistance.

The Honda VFR800 charging systems had lots of issues in this charging circuit too. Some of the effective "fixes" involved eliminating as many connectors as possible. These quick disconnect points are really not important except for when you need to replace one of the components. For the number of times we need to replace an alternator stator or R/R we could just do straight hi-pressure butt splices, and even solder fill the splice if desired, and get rid of several weak connection points. The only downside is that when you did have a component failure you'd have to cut them out and re-splice.
You are too damn smart too. Makes my head hurt reading this stuff :)

Been a good thread to read.

All you guys thinking makes me wana drink some Maker's Mark.

 
Yes, lots of people have had BDS, to the point where the bike doesn't have enough juice in it to start the bike. Which is the whole point of having a panel Battery Volt meter in the dash. But generally BDS only happens if they are running too many high power consuming accessories, such as aux lights and heated gear. Little stuff like GPSes, intercoms, etc you'll never have a problem.

PS - It's not an analogy. It actually is one. Albeit a chemical storage of voltage vs electrostatic.
Strictly speaking, the battery is a capacitor but i tend to think of a capacitor as an electrostatic device rather than a chemical device. Perhaps accumulator is a better term? I digress...

Anyway, once I get the aux lights and start using the heated gear (hopefully not too soon!), I will carry a DVM around for long enough to assure myself that I don't have a problem. The auxilliary lights I bought are HID (35 W each after startup) so as long as the charging system is OK, I should have lots of capacity.

I'll bookmark this thread in case I run into problems.

Ross

 
I have been chasing this problem for a few years. Each year it gets a little worse, but never to the point of not starting. It did get to the point of not being able to run the heated gear it used to run just fine. This year it deteriorated to the point that the fans were causing a discharge.

Over the course of time I cleaned and inspected every connection I could find. I ran every electrical test I could find. (All checked good.) I replaced the RR and the Stator. I added ground wires from the motor to the chassis, the RR housing to chassis, and just about every where else. I even replaced the Datel. No joy on any of it. Don's work made me realize that the problem is the factory wires from the RR are just too small and over time they deteriorated. When you cut your RR plug off you will then see the size of the factory feed wires. They are pathetically small. Plus the fact that the factory connectors on the RR are not a tight fit at all. I doubt that the 8 gauge wire I used is necessary. That's a big wire. The only reason I used 8 ga. is the auto parts store was out of 10 ga. (Not all things are scientific.)

The proof that the factory wire is too small is that even when the bike was new I never saw more than 13.8V. I now see 14.2V on cold fast idle and once in a while a quick glimpse at 14.3V. But even more important, when the bike was new, and the fans came on it would read 13.3V. Now it holds 13.9v at idle! It's not so much the voltage that maters but the huge increased ability to carry a load without voltage deterioration.

The wire is too small......Whoda thunk that?

Thanks Don.

Edit: As far as post 203 is concerned I have no idea what he is talking about. I do not take things to that level and I have a wheel barrow full of used good parts to prove it. LOL

 
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Looking at the FSM , there is the 50 amp main fuse between the RR and battery. I think it's closer to the battery. Also it shows 2 quick disconnects, 1 at main fuse, 1 close to battery. Just sayin.

 
Looking at the FSM , there is the 50 amp main fuse between the RR and battery. I think it's closer to the battery. Also it shows 2 quick disconnects, 1 at main fuse, 1 close to battery. Just sayin.

I inspected and cleaned all those 2 years ago and replaced the main fuse which had a little corrosion in it. I gained .1V Run a new wire Art. You will be thrilled with the results. Better than new! This issue is going to turn out just like the spider grounds. Sooner or later it will get everyone.

 
The wire is too small......Whoda thunk that?
This issue is going to turn out just like the spider grounds. Sooner or later it will get everyone.

Howzabout EVERYONE who's still riding Gen I's after all the electrical problems with Gen II's started rearing their ugly heads???

 
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The wire is too small......Whoda thunk that?
This issue is going to turn out just like the spider grounds. Sooner or later it will get everyone.

Howzabout EVERYONE who's still riding Gen I's after all the electrical problems with Gen II's started rearing their ugly heads???
Ouch! I feel like stick man #2 in your avatar. But your right. The Gen 2 wiring is a disaster.

 
Looking at the FSM , there is the 50 amp main fuse between the RR and battery. I think it's closer to the battery. Also it shows 2 quick disconnects, 1 at main fuse, 1 close to battery. Just sayin.

I inspected and cleaned all those 2 years ago and replaced the main fuse which had a little corrosion in it. I gained .1V Run a new wire Art. You will be thrilled with the results. Better than new! This issue is going to turn out just like the spider grounds. Sooner or later it will get everyone.
Bob

Yeah, I plan on replacing the wire, but the tech in me still wants to find the smoking gun. From what you all have done I'm sure it's the wire, but I want to run a test before I replace it. I just don't have time to get into it now. I also agree about it effecting most sooner or later. It's been 3 or 4 years since I've seen 14.1 volts. A lot of people may not know it's getting worse if they don't have a volt gage.

 
I think the wire needs to be tested under a load. An ohm meter is no good. Even a tiny wire has continuity. I think there is a tester called a Megger. It not only tests continuity but also load capacity? I'm not sure. Where is Alan?

 
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Looking at the FSM , there is the 50 amp main fuse between the RR and battery. I think it's closer to the battery. Also it shows 2 quick disconnects, 1 at main fuse, 1 close to battery. Just sayin.

I inspected and cleaned all those 2 years ago and replaced the main fuse which had a little corrosion in it. I gained .1V Run a new wire Art. You will be thrilled with the results. Better than new! This issue is going to turn out just like the spider grounds. Sooner or later it will get everyone.
+1, about 2 years ago I replaced the 50A main fuse, cleaned all the connectors, my current R/R (last one died) is about 3 months old and the Stator is around 1yr old, since the old one fried enough to fail the various tests Ionbeam and the FSM stipulate. I don't remember gaining anything, but I wasn't looking for 0.1V so may have missed that.

Of course this brings up my earlier pondering a few posts back - does the inferior R/R wiring, connectors, etc. lead to the early demise of the R/R and/or Stator because both of these components end up having to work at max capacity ALL the time just to try to provide sufficient Voltage to charge the bike, and things get even worse if you also run lights, heated gear, etc.

So I agree, this is exactly like the ground spiders design fubar, I soldered all the spider joints, and grounded each of them (except the two for the ECU, thanks again to Ionbeam's advice/caution, those I just soldered together). This was over two years ago, and I've not had to think about that problem again, nor do I expect to ever.

 
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My . 02JK, grounding directly back to source , battery, always best!

Grounding oem harness makes sense to me? Providing as many low resistance paths as possible back to battery = good?

iPad posted have more to say ... Later
Thanks DC, I'll ground the OEM -ve R/R wire to the frame just for shits and giggles since I've got all the panels off right now as part of the Starter motor replacement job.

BTW, when are you going to post up your pics of the Datel reading the much thought after 14.1V ;)

 
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Yes, lots of people have had BDS, to the point where the bike doesn't have enough juice in it to start the bike. Which is the whole point of having a panel Battery Volt meter in the dash. But generally BDS only happens if they are running too many high power consuming accessories, such as aux lights and heated gear. Little stuff like GPSes, intercoms, etc you'll never have a problem.

PS - It's not an analogy. It actually is one. Albeit a chemical storage of voltage vs electrostatic.
Strictly speaking, the battery is a capacitor but i tend to think of a capacitor as an electrostatic device rather than a chemical device. Perhaps accumulator is a better term? I digress...

Anyway, once I get the aux lights and start using the heated gear (hopefully not too soon!), I will carry a DVM around for long enough to assure myself that I don't have a problem. The auxilliary lights I bought are HID (35 W each after startup) so as long as the charging system is OK, I should have lots of capacity.

I'll bookmark this thread in case I run into problems.

Ross
Just an idea, but now a days you can get a more plug-n-play Volt meter for about $30

New KOSO LED Display Super Slim Volt Meter 8-18V - Blue

%24(KGrHqN,!l8E5h691YnKBOcuIZ24rg~~60_12.JPG


 
Looking at the FSM , there is the 50 amp main fuse between the RR and battery. I think it's closer to the battery. Also it shows 2 quick disconnects, 1 at main fuse, 1 close to battery. Just sayin.

I inspected and cleaned all those 2 years ago and replaced the main fuse which had a little corrosion in it. I gained .1V Run a new wire Art. You will be thrilled with the results. Better than new! This issue is going to turn out just like the spider grounds. Sooner or later it will get everyone.
Bob

Yeah, I plan on replacing the wire, but the tech in me still wants to find the smoking gun. From what you all have done I'm sure it's the wire, but I want to run a test before I replace it. I just don't have time to get into it now. I also agree about it effecting most sooner or later. It's been 3 or 4 years since I've seen 14.1 volts. A lot of people may not know it's getting worse if they don't have a volt gage.
Does this mean you may put a kit together for us clueless electron challenged people? As I said on my 2010 they (the shop) are looking for 14.0. Mine is 13.90 and was mentioned to me only in passing after the service. However the comment was with all the things you have on there it is not an issue and nothing to worry about.

I do.

 
I think the wire needs to be tested under a load. An ohm meter is no good. Even a tiny wire has continuity. I think there is a tester called a Megger. It not only tests continuity but also load capacity? I'm not sure. Where is Alan?
The piece of information you need is the 'volts drop' along the positive wire from the RR to the battery.

Suggest you connect a (Digital Volt Meter) DVM, set on DC Volts with the positive lead connected at the RR positive & the negative lead connected at the battery positive terminal.

Start the engine and apply loads in stages and record the volts drop each time. If you can actually measure current through that wire at the same time that would be ideal.

It's probably worth repeating this for the negative wire from the RR to the battery.

As far as I am aware a 'Megger' is an insulation tester, no practical use in this application.

Hope that helps

Don

 
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